The LIV Tour --- and a Scruffy Phil ! Opinions -- agree or disagree?

General Discussion
#162

You fight your battles where you can. I’d rather not use any oil given a choice but our economy runs on it so we are kinda stuck there. However we don’t have to sports wash their regime so that’s a battle we can have.

And I am DEEPLY embarrassed by the UKs record on exporting weapons, detention equipment etc.

I think the PGA were kinda doing that, OK, off you go and you cant play in our events. Then the money grabbers started moaning, threatening legal action etc. PGA has to defend itself I guess.

#163

This country’s infrastructure is build on the highway system. We had been exploring the EV option since more than a decade ago. The EV dose not offer a reasonable range of mobility, takes too long to charge up, even with the rapid charge; large initial sunk cost, and the poisonous fuel cell which will not break down in the environment. Had there been a different way of providing energy , we’d re-consider. Most people have no idea just how bad the waste from lithium battery could be. Like the freeway system were built, we need to seek alternative solutions like a network of light-rail or restructuring the geological locations of the supporting networks. During the Pandemics, it proved that the remote working ( or partial remote working ) is viable. That alone will cut down the consumption of fossil fuel by a large margin.
Many of the tech companies already implementing the partial remote office hours. Some are doing 25% in office, and 75% remotely off site. Everything seems to work fine at this moment.
As far as not supporting the regional power? Their wealth is in every industry whether you like it or not. This silent take over started in the late 70’s.

#164

My, My, there are some very aggressive flag wavers for the LIV on the social media now. I have no idea whether their position were paid, or not.
Most of them came from overseas. Made me wonder why someone from RSA wants to post on Facebook for the bashing of PGA.
Some even accuse the PGA being a monopoly, owning the professional Tour. I want to point out that “we” put in the effort and the money to promote this game in the last century to have today’s result. Television and Arnold Palmer spearhead the movement of grow the sports.
Some ignorant people there. The fans are the power to float the boat of the PGA events. Not the PGA can dictate. Without the fans, there be no PGA.
Same as everything else. Why are these people showing their ignorance on public platform ?

#165

Think you are focusing on old tech. Even current lithium batteries are achieving 300 miles range and 10-80% recharge time of 20 minutes. The recycling of them has improved hugely and they aren’t even the future of EV. However other fuels are needed, such as Green Hydrogen (mainly being looked at for HGV/PSV use) and bioethanol could be a good option as its fairly easy to convert existing ICE units to run off this and the delivery infrastructure is already in place.

You are bang on with public transport, whilst its dirty, costly, overcrowded and unsafe it wont be used. Real thought is needed around general urban infrastructure and how to link rural communities to it.

#166

We believe we are updated on the issue , but always like to learn more if there is new information.
The extended range of EV will require “upgraded” battery pack, depending on the brand, could be a lot more of spare changes.
The toxic remanence from lithium battery will not decompose unless they found a new way of breaking it up. so called recycle still produce toxic elements. These will stay in the earth ( typically bury under the ground like nuclear waste ) and eventually the container will leak, the substance will go into the earth and then water system. Plastic had already shown damage to the eco system and will be with us for centuries if not forever. The toxic poison from lithium battery and heavy metal will have a much longer effect. Of course, the same elements is also in the semi-conductor chips which is in our every day life. That we can not rid of completely, but I have a choice of not using EV simply because the officials are pushing it. The earth will be toxic waste land in the future, not that I could see, but I will do my share of minimizing it. My family will not own an EV at the current technology.
They are still talking about other optional fuel. The more immediate solution is to change the infrastructure and the way we live. Yes, the change will cost us time and resources, but it’ll be a bargain if we look back in decades. Just like when the interstates were built. The benefit will more than justify for the cost. California trying to rid of the sale for gas powered vehicles in 2035! Wishful thinking for the day dreamers. Can’t change that without a workable alternative for the average people. No one believes the EV will come down to the same price tag as current price and model choice for the gas powered vehicles. It took a century for the motor vehicle to get to this point, and it’ll take longer than 13 years for the conversion over to all EV.
Rush to change the law will not change the fact that technology advancement does not move as fast as generating ideas.

#167

Someone in my group made a comment on this caddy’s cut. No Fer’n way they said. Remember these guys sold out their own for the reward. For the $10M. They’d sell out their own mother.
PGA informed these golfers now on the LIV roster that their PGA membership will not be renewed.
Not a surprise at all. PGA react a little slower, because they’re more cautious with more experience of handling these kind of affair, although not in the same magnitude.
This is not like neighbor’s dog do their things on your lawn; this is like armed invasion into your home.

#168

Ops ! Some LIV players got “let go” to make space for others who might jump ship. I hope they had received a large installment from the lore they were promised. Because the PGA had canceled the membership of those who joined the LIV.
So they have no place to “professionally golf”. Monday qualifier and Q-School is about the option open for them now.
I wonder why Phil was not “let go” since he had poor performance with only one round of sub 70 since the opening of the LIV “show”. Maybe he has the reputation and the fan base?
Those brownie points will wear thin really fast, and he probably need to qualify or beg to get on the Champion Tour. Maybe retiring and bet on the sport team as a wanna be professional gambler?

#169

And the first collegiate athlete now signs to LIV…any views on Puig’s decision. He says PGA wont give him playing opportunities and LIV did. Feels to me like he wants the benefits of college with the chance to play pro golf. i.e. Cake and Eating it…

#170

Except for money, the Top Players on the Camel Tour are starting to feel the ramifications of joining the Camel Tour Experiment. Cam complaining no OWGR points, not being able to play Prez Cup! He knew this going in! Now he’s complaining. Bryson… crybabying about not being able to to play the Prez Cup or Ryder Cup. Hack… you are correct, they want their cake and eat it too! I have no empathy for them, these are greedy multi-millionaires that opted out to collect more millions. I do not begrudge them the money, guys like Stenson, his career is ostensibly over on the PGA Tour, one little signature made him more money than he earned on 30 years on the PGA Tour! But that “Deal with the Devil” comes at a cost and that’s ok too. I wish you well, but I don’t want you back. Does any true golfer out there actually think that a Shotgun 54 hole event against only a few former Top Players on the PGA Tour should qualify for OWGR points… I’ll give you a 1/15 of a point for every event you win out there. These guys aren’t even encouraged to practice, Anyone see Bryson or Brooks playing the game at a Tour level… NO, you don’t, because they don’t practice, they go out drink a few beers knock the ball around a bit at a totally Barnum & Bailey event and go home with a fat bank account whether they win or lose. Now do you see what I’ve been saying all along. My opinion is, do what you gotta do, but you can’t do both!

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#171

The rumor was spread by Norman, alone. No official statement from T.W.
Norman was just testing the water to see if T.W. has a price in which he could be bought, so Norman could turn around to the financial backing to get more dough.
It’s obvious the ambition is not to take over the PGA. PGA is the target because it is the leading organization of the industry.
The ambition is to globalization of the sport. PGA and then the World. Imagine everything about the sport is controlled by one entity?
This country is unique in the way it has more land for the sports, thus more available for the fans to fulfill their fantasy of being on the golf course. No other place on earth offers the same.
Hard to be a fan if only less than 1% of the population could access the golf courses.
Globalization, in truth is take control of the PGA and the industry in this country.

#172

NCAA has strict rules of how one is qualified. Joining LIV is not exempt. Either you’re a professional of you’re on the school team.
Yes, he could try to get the easy money now, and come back to finish his education if he so desires. Or get qualified to play the PGA.
Good thing about the PGA is, there are clear ways of qualifying to be a member, anyone could join if they qualify under the rules.
LIV is by invitation. The ones in his caliber will be used and tossed, like an old rage.
LIV is run by a few individuals trying to drum up the field for their supposed “new format for the 2023”. The let go a few golfers under the performance clause in the contract and now building up the needed numbers for the full field of their formula.
Like running a Broadway show by a bunch of students still in theatrical schools.
Norman was never a strong management type, he was a good golfer, and the go get it type of person. However, what will he do after he “got it” is questionable. In other words, he can not close the deal.
He will be replaced soon id the LIV could get on it’s feet.
Noticed there are more and more propaganda fanning the fire for the LIV using social platform in the last few weeks. Some large publication and their columnists/writer had been bought, to side with the LIV. so many non-golfers on their platform to wave flags and attack others voicing their opinions.
It very difficult to make the transition from printed publication to the digital form with the current readers. Many of us do not prefer to read everything over a tablet instead of the traditional printed newspaper or magazines.
Can’t blame them for trying to survive, as the golf courses allowing the LIV events. However, being in the media, there is a fine line of reporting the fact or spreading biased messages. Might just change their image to the tabloids.
You will also spot the fact that there are so many different people on the social platform, some are outright ignorant.
Action without consequences, same as what we had seen in our world in the last few years. You can’t allow the kids to do everything they wish to do without supervision.

#173

FORMAL, is the key word in your message.
Agree with you that we should not spit on those who decided what’s right for their life and their family. But please, don’t cry like a two year old when they could not get everything under the sun.
Damaging the PGA is like doing damage to their fellow PGA members. Can they seriously believe that they could stab their fellows on the back then be welcomed back onto the dinner table?
Watching Bryson’s incident with the spectator’s rope on video. Obviously he was under some sort of influence, threw a fit when his caddy trying to hand him a towel. LOL, what? your mommy did not hold your hands when crossing the roadway? The caddy should carry the staff bag and hold the rope for you?
If anyone on the LIV is using unauthorized method/medication, for better performance to boost the fan support, sorry to say, they will pay a dear price for it, they always do.
Like I said, I’ll play pickle ball when the conglomerate takes over the game and the surrounding industries. Money is very important in business and life but, not the only thing. As sex is with a marriage relationship.

#174

To play devils advocate for a moment here (and I broadly agree with your basic point)

This weekend gone we saw three events taking place, one PGA event (which Danny Willet will want to forget) one DP World Tour in Italy and a LIV event. Across all 3 only 3 of the worlds top 10 were actually playing golf at all. Cam Smith won the LIV event and Rory and Matt Fitz were in Italy. So you could argue that LIV was stronger than the PGA event this time out. A blip not a trend I am sure for now, but the PGA needs to work harder to get top players out playing.

At what stage do we have to put aside distaste for the LIV Tour and start to acknowledge that some very good golfers are on the tour and that if its ignored the World Rankings become something of a farce.

Even if only a third of the players that would be Top 20 join LIV that will still leave an asterix against any future rankings, surely? Ranking points have been given to events playing less than 72 holes before so it woudl be possible, but not while the system is controlled by the existing tours.

You may have heard of a sport called cricket. Its mostly very dull with the odd moment of excitement. Purists love the 5 day version that can easily end in a draw. But to attract new audiences they have created new formats that are really taking off.

I think the PGA may have dirt on its hands here. Drives got longer, rather than showcasing that and saying ‘wow look at these guys go, come and see…’ the message was, hmmm…we need to stop this. Make holes longer, balls bigger, drivers shorter etc. A player wears a hoody and the world melts down. Their needs to be a balance between tradition and progress and I think both the PGA and LIV are missing the mark.

As a golf fan, I would embrace different formats, I love the Ryder Cup partly for that. I don’t like the source of the money and the attitude of some of the players signed to LIV has been poor and delighted that the guys I really follow have flatly rejected it. No conflict has ever been resolved until the parties involved choose to get round a table and find a solution.

I don’t see the current situation as good for golf, with weaker fields everywhere and competing broadcast schedules. Raging against the machine, whilst satisfying, produces very little positive results and just polarizes opinion. Right now you have to be for LIV and anti PGA or the way. Maybe we should instead be hoping those in charge can find away to make it possible to enjoy both. The bigger events could be really exciting when you get all the top players competing in a a way they don’t on a week to week basis, offering something a little different to us the fans.

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#175

I no longer see anyone on the Camel Tour as being in the Top Players in the world. I don’t even follow it, I only see the headlines. Last I saw on the PGA Tour, Bryson, Brooks and Phil were all falling fast, the Poulter, Westwood and Stenson were also rans. Camel got Cam, Anderson and Niemann, all very good players but sorry, other than their own countries rooting for them not exactly all that except for Cam. This is the normal Silly Season, I watch DP especially cuz I love watching and listening to Iona. Senior Your is winding down. I actually thought the ending of the Fortinet was something that I could relate to. (Long Story) But it was way better than who Cam beat. And on the DP, all I have to say Rory was playing. 54 hole events are reserved for senior events. BTW I watch a lot of LPGA because my distance relates closer to them and they are amazing players I like watching match play, I thought the stableford was fun and I really miss the World Matchplay and those 2 man Team events. I remember watching skills challenge in the 80s and 90s sorry who did Cam beat. Who? There will always be new guys replacing the old. You can take the Camel 54 hole shotgun events and well you might as well televise the Celebrity Shotgun outing at you local club. And how do you feel about that,? Well the course is closed!

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#176

I’m a more traditional guy in most part. As I learned from my experience in my youth. To keep one’s mind young but reframe from being one the first to act upon that mind set.
Young people are entitled to make mistake and when they bounce back, they’ll be better than ever. Simply because they had gone to the other side and realized the truth.
If we had learned anything from the years passed by as a senior, we should already know which path to take and which path to avoid. Sorry to say, many of the senior are as innocent as a teenager.
If you enjoy watching the LIV events, and wave flag for the team, it’ll be your choice to do so.
Think of it as a larger picture; the investors are not handing out charity for the has-been. Their motive is to take over the industry with all the surrounding business connected to it. If you like to do everything connected to golf with this particular group, then it’ll be your choice!
There is not much to say about these people who set their women in bondage of social freedom. Just recently they allowed their women to drive an automobile. Their women are treated as property not a partner and the bearer of their children. They had been funding most the terrorist activities around the world.
When you give a teenager the power of finance, especially let him control your bank account, watch out!
Norman saw a chance to profit himself and took it. Nothing more. But, now he has to burn the remaining of his candle trying to get the support from the golf fans.
The LIV is NOT an underdog; it is a wolf trying to get in the herd of sheep then kill them off one by one. PGA is the sheep dog guarding the herd, thus the first to be attacked. Not many could see this from the beginning, some only realized what is going on just recently. But their motive was clear from the get-go.
They won’t spread their money around if they can’t expect a much larger return in the future. Many of them are educated in the Western World and all of their advisors are molded by our system. So in the sense of the business world, they are similar to us but without the restrain of ethic and consideration.
Why would the LIV cry about their rejection by most of the golf fans? Don’t let the tears fool you. They are just trying to get the golf fans to support their effort in taking over this sports.
Why do we need more distance with this game? the younger generations are brain washed by the equipment manufacturers marketing theme.
Human ability is probably stretched to near our limit now as to produce longer distance with the equipment we use. Just look at all the injuries reported from the professional golfers. The average age on the injury list is getting younger and younger.
Yes, you can play this game into your twilight years, but not the way these young guns are belting out 300 yards drive week in and week out.
Pre-matured injury.
I will not criticize any golfer taking up the LIV for their reasons. They can grow a bear, put on some weight and retire anonymously after a few years with the money they gathered.
Knowing who the LIV backer are and their motive. I can not support them, as growing up I learned the tradition and the over laden rules of this game. This has become the attraction for me as a person to stay in this game for decades. A silly game which took a lot of my time and many digits from the savings. Without the tradition and the rules governing the game; everyone blasting their drive over 300 yards… having to purchase everything related to this game from one source; will probably turn me away to something else for recreation.
Dreams give a person something to look forward to. The expectation is what makes it attractive. LIV stripped it naked. Bare facts will lose the curiosity for golfers to continue this life long quest of chasing the dream.

#177

I am trying to follow your response so forgive me if I misunderstand. First off, I agree that the players currently on LIV, as a whole are on the wrong end of their career. I also don’t like the shotgun start concept as I believe it lessens the drama. Don’t care about 54 or 72 holes but it needs jeopardy, i.e. a Cut and that cut meaning something. As it stands you can roll up with just a putter and make a lot of money, that cant be right.

However I also here a lot ‘those guys going to LIV will get kicked off when others join’ as a reason not go. This does imply that the expectation is for bigger players to go over. For arguments sake Scheffler, Zalatoris, Cantlay and Morikawa all joined in the next month. You may want to say ‘I don’t see them as being in the Top Players in the World’ but they are. (not saying this will happen or even those players would consider it).

Further to this, if they are recruiting college players (Puig) and they develop on into great players how does that impact it. Imagine, for a moment, a young amateur gets recruited by LIV and turns out to be TW. Would Tiger not be the best to ever play because he was on Tour we don’t like?

If LIV survives past the first few years these are real possibilities that we need to be grown up about. I see a lot of people with fingers in their ears shouting “no” and throwing insults and derogatory comments in all directions but what I want to explore is what is the grown up approach to dealing with LIV. Continued conflict, appeasement, compromise?

Genuinely I don’t know the answer. I don’t watch tons of golf and in almost every way I have no reason to care about PGA, LIV or any other pro golf tours and events. But when the majors, Ryder Cup et al come round, they are better when the best are playing.

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#178

If the PGA Tour membership signs over to the Camel Tour that’s fine. It won’t stop me from playing the sport and trying to improve my game trying to develop a swing, even at my age, that will continue to develop and allow me to play. That said I just won’t follow or watch events. I’ll watch the LPGA or I will indulge myself on YouTube watching reruns of better times and Shell’s Wonderful World of Golf. I’d rather read a good book and work on my Cooking skills

#179

The difference between the PGA ( with it’s associated tours around the world) and the LIV, as I see it are;

  • The PGA has a clear path for anyone to qualify to be on the tour. The LIV is by invitation only to get on the gravy train. With a spelled out rules, the golfers on the PGA will have to sharpen their tools to stay on the tour thus the fans will observe the finest crop of the bunch at all times. If after making great income ( purse + endorsement) one can not blame anyone from mismanaged the funds.
  • The LIV’s way of renewing their players roster is by using the performance clause in their contract. Essentially, without the “standard for performance” spelled out and time tested, this give a few ( Norman the CEO of LIV) a power to rule over like a dictator. At the beginning, the LIV needed “bodies” to fill the roster to put on a show; now the LIV ( Norman) is letting go many of these fillers to allow better golfers to join the LIV under their budget and plan. Now, who will be a better golfer and who makes the decision of which will have a better future?
    It’s a situation which both sides have no commitment and no clear rules of how they’ll run this show. One side using just about anybody to fill the roster to get the show on the road. One side is attracted by the lucrative offering even knowing it’ll probably not going to last.
    Norman has his plan of pushing the show on the road in a jam.
    With what happened to some of the LIV golfers, I will not be surprised some of the well-known names will be “let go” of backed off with excuses very soon.
    -The LIV is not interested in taking over the PGA. It’s ambition is to take over the industry and globalizing it. Simply because the industry is not a conglomerate but an entity with many compartment. Think if you put PGA and other Tours, down stream to the equipment retail to the manufacturing, to the raw material, R&D… it’s a very large segment of the economy. At least in this country, since golf is an elite sports in most of the other countries played by the elite group of people with disposable income.
    Most the people I know, including myself will not be staying in this game should the day came when everything involved relating to the group behind LIV.
    No fan? No commercial value! If anyone has the ambition and the ability to “takeover” the greatest game in the world; a more thorough investigation and planning should preceding the action. Working out details and patience will solve most the issue. I guess they had no patience because the PGA is not a for profit , public owned entity; so they could not take over with just the wealth. If there was any failed prior meeting under the table, I could see the reason of contradicting goals between the PGA and the LIV. One is for profit only and one is interested in maintaining the tradition and grow the game conservatively. One has no rules it wish to follow one has everything this game stands for.
    Some OEM changed the equipment releasing cycle by breaking the unspoken rules. What happens now? No one I know rush to the golf shop to see and touch the new equipment release with excitement like we used to. Only a few who change their bag every season just to “show and tell”, because they could not shine with their game.
    The LIV will kill off this sports.
#180

With you apart from the last line. I don’t believe that LIV will kill off golf at all. I don’t actually think what is happening at pro level actually impacts 90% of golfers at all. I watch an hour of so at best in an average week, more for majors. Most of my consumption is actually YT channels (Rick Shiels, Good Good, Golf Mates etc.) The guys I regularly play with don’t watch any golf on TV at all. They see it so far removed from what we do each Sunday its just not relevant. In reality pro golf is advertising for OEM’s, watch companies and clothing brands.

#181

First of all, why would you feel different from watching LIV events to PGA tournaments? Tell me the difference. It’s essentially with similar cast and plot, run by different production groups with different tunes.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone, especially the young without much of life experience has the “right” to make mistakes. We all had our share in the 50’s and the 60’ but luckily we did not destroy everything, and we “grew up” okay.
Let me ask you this, from your statement, do you watch pro sports online or on television? NFL? MLB? NBA? MLS? Why would you “feel” irrelevant with the PGA through the same media?
I understand if you’re trying to relate “your game” to what’s with the PGA.
Many of my fellow golfers prefer to watch the LPGA tournaments because they can relate their own game to the lady’s much better. However, they watch the PGA just for the same reason as watching the other professional sports.
Watching the other “instructional video” online, yes, as YouTube has it’s merit, I use it all the time to find tips or repairing things around the house, visual display is much easier to communicate and saves time from reading printed materials. Watching the equipment review and instruction on YouTube, there are some great clips, but not every clip is relevant to yours and mine golf game.
As whether the LIV will kill off the professional sports of golf? For certain, they were trying to destroy the tradition, but, they’re also trying to change that because it had met resistance from the fans.
If you believe they are Santa spreading billions free of charge to enrich our life, think again. Examine the pattern of the way they do business and you can make a good conscious decision of whether you will support them?
In the tidal wave we are in these days of tearing down the traditional for the reason of tearing it down. Without a better replacement for the most part. So many are mislead by the social platform and media. Nothing is “And that’s the way it is” any longer. we have to be carefully filtering all the information we take in, before we can see the facts.
If you observed the background of the finance source of the LIV and the motive of the instigator (Greg Norman), you’ll confirm that the royal group from the Kingdom of the sand does not do charity work; Greg Norman is a disgruntles member rebelling from his own. If you are observing, you’ll know why his has not risen to higher ladder in the organization, some of us are good soldiers not fit for being in a general in command. I have no objection of agreeing to progress ( although this is a tern misused often ), and changes. But somethings will die when we take away what is the spirit and the root of the existing.
If we change the golf with so called improvement, it’ll not be the golf I had grown up to know. It might as well be called something else which use the golf clubs and golf balls.
the LIV grand scheme is to take over the industry. They can not do this if they copy the tradition as a new comer to win over the fan, so they tried different format of events… Not working so far, so they are planning on “something NEW for 2023” which I believe will be closer the what we know golf is right now. They tried motivating the LIV players to take legal action against the PGA, not working at this time. They tried to move the politician for intervention, not working for obvious reasons.
They are pulling out all the trick in the hat at this point. Bottom line is, they are not able to win over the majority of the golf fan, and I don’t believe they will ever.
They made a fundamental mistake in a business move. This is not a world in the kindergarten, bullying is often not working. If time could turn back, they should have team up with the existing Tours to form a global organization, expanding from the present platform, with their financial backing and the working model, it’ll be beneficial for everyone involved including the fan. The major road block is probably ( I’m guessing) the group wish to take over the helm , without much experience.
Smart way is to work in the agreement and then increase of influence will come. Everyone will be happy. Instead of the action of a hostile takeover. Very childish act. I don’t believe their financial advisors made this move. More a liking of Greg Norman’s trade mark.
So to conclude your reply, the sport as we know will vanish, if the tradition is taken away from it.

Open your mind, the group behind the LIV is not just targeting the PGA or just the golf industry. They want to take control over everything but, not willing to put in the investment of time and effort. This will show you that they will also abandon ship should unfavorable events happen.