So I watched that replay and I also saw Kuch say the ball was moving. So hit a ball while it’s in motion penalty, or wait and it falls into the cup and it’s penalty. So rock or hard place? I say it was a birdie, it was in motion. BUT that’s not what’s pissing me off. Any other time the camera is on top of ball, you would see it still oscillating forward, but not on this one? Any other time, I’m watching the camera blow up a shot and it shows 2 grains of sand moved on the backswing in a bunker and they assess a penalty, or the ball was moving because the wind blew it on the green and u grounded your club. So it’s a penalty. OK they are penalties because a camera blew it up… Where was the camera on this one so we could jam a call up some referees rear end. Kuch said the ball was moving good enough for me.!
Missed this… interesting ruling…
If kuch said the ball is moving i would say that his prior stroke had not yet ended
If you hit it on the edge of a tier at augusta and it rolls off the false front as you are walking up, you don’t get to replace it
You also dont get to mark if it is moving
Doesn’t make sense to me
If you are phil, you sometimes can hit a putt while it is still moving
I remember that…it was a hoot!
Heard discussion on this and, while you can’t hit a ball that’s moving, the rule (like it or not) says that after 10 seconds of arriving at the ball (reasonable time allotted for you to get there based on prior shot length) the ball is “deemed at rest” and therefore you technically aren’t hitting a moving ball.
I don’t know where I fall since clearly you can’t have someone waiting 10 minutes for a wind gust but seems like if you can see it moving then you should be able to wait.
Kutchar was wrong and the ruling was correct so no jamming this one up anyone’s rear.
13.3 Ball Overhanging Hole
a. Waiting Time to See If Ball Overhanging Hole Will Fall into Hole
If any part of a player’s ball overhangs the lip of the hole:
- The player is allowed a reasonable time to reach the hole and ten more seconds to wait to see whether the ball will fall into the hole.
- If the ball falls into the hole in this waiting time, the player has holed out with the previous stroke.
- If the ball does not fall into the hole in this waiting time:
This is where knowledge of the actual rule is important. @BarryGoldberg quoted the rule, if the ball has not fallen in the hole within 10 seconds of the player’s arrival, the ball is treated as being at rest. Gone are any concerns related to a moving ball, the ball is at rest. There’s no penalty for hitting a ball that is considered (under the applicable rule) to be at rest. Obviously Kuch doesn’t know the rule, and he’s no different from a significant number of Tour players that way.
Here’s where everyone has the problem. There is no mention that when I reach the ball and you can still it’s moving. Deemed at rest, should mean deemed at rest not moving. The at rest rule doesn’t seem to affect anywhere else.You hit a ball on the edge of a slope, it’s at rest, but when you go to mark it it starts to roll backwards 40 yards down the slope. Not like you can replace it. This rule will be revisited…you can mark that down today. I’m not the only one, including pros on tour that think the rule is too ambiguous. It’s not like it happens alot either. That’s why I’d have like to have seen the close up of whether it was just slowly turning and 2 blades of grass was holding up gravity. The wind played no factor in pushing it in the hole and neither did Carl Spangler. This should be referred to heretoforth as the NoonanRule
It’s definitely an interesting situation and I think the rule does a decent job of allowing for the ball to still fall… honestly, I think they could change the phrasing and make things more clear… basically, if the player addresses the ball and it doesn’t move in 10 seconds, it’s deemed at rest.
I do think it creates some interesting incentives for the players… had he turned and thrown his putter down the fairway, and spent a minute walking to get it and then come back, the ball likely would have fallen… I’d argue that he took a reasonable amount of time to address the ball, though maybe he’d get a slap on the wrist / wallet from the PGA.
We’ve seen the ball fall often enough that it’s probably worth players planning some sort of time buying antics to keep them from addressing the ball, but maybe not?
Instead of throwing the club, what would happen if the player declared he wanted a rules official to make sure he waited the full 10 seconds and in the wait for the official, the ball fell in?
I have one even more interesting. Wind is howling, you chip the ball from the edge of the green and it falls into the hole, but it’s trapped between the foam insert, the stick and the edge of the hole, you go up to grab the ball \within the so-called 10 second rule (11 seconds have officially elapsed) and the gust pushes the stick against he ball and pops it out…Ball Not Holed. Because even though it was at rest, we’re not going to deem it at rest, because the wind, which is not an outside agency popped it out. Follow me there on some of this ambiguousness. That’s why I’m saying Deemed at Rest means what then? Once again, the old close but no cigar sitch! Say WOW to that one now!
In that scenario “if any part of the ball is below the surface of the green it is considered as in the hole” To be touching the flag part of the ball must be below the level of the hole.
I thought this same thing; what if Kim took some time to read his next putt and it fell in during that time?
So there it is: Close but no cigar, the ball wasnt ever considered at rest. As always, when this occurs and I’ve seen it occur, you have to be careful with the stick, and even though the ball is mostly below the hole, if it does pop out, it is not considered holed and you place it on the 1/4inch line and putt it in…for another stroke. If u are in a tournament. that is
An even better explanation. https://www.usga.org/articles/2016/11/when-is-a-ball-actually-holed-.html Rule has not changed. But the inserts we still use at our course are still there, so the ball never fully disappears. Our pro says be careful…LOL
Two things. First, the player is allowed a reasonable time to get to the hole. Reasonable time, if I’m the official, doesn’t include time to walk directly away from the hole to retrieve a club he’s specifically hurled away form the hole. So in that situation, he’s taken substantially longer than a reasonable time, so the ball is holed, and the penalty applies, just as it did to Kim. Second, he’s expected to play in accordance with the rules (Rule 1). If he specifically concocts a scheme to avoid the rule, he may be subject to DQ, or at very minimum a fine from the Tour.
As for a ball bouncing out of a hole due to foam, if it bounces out, too bad. If it comes to rest on the foam, touching the flagstick, and LATER the wind moves the flagstick, I’d say its holed. But having the foam in there is basically against the Rules, which require a minimum depth of the cup. As long as its in there, its appropriate to bend the Rules to fit circumstances.
I’m not being serious, but I do wonder on these things… if a player got mad and threw their club and had to go retrieve it (not to intentionally add time, just because they were mad) would that not be a reasonable time? They need to retrieve the club they will use to hit the next putt.
It’s a silly example, but there is ambiguity in the term reasonable… would it be reasonable to take 30 seconds to be frustrated, address your caddy that you couldn’t believe it stopped just short and you really thought it was going to go in?
Would it be reasonable to have a “calming mantra” that took 45 seconds whenever you got an unlucky break that you did right after something didn’t go your way? Assuming that you did it consistently across the round and were doing it to help you refocus yourself (even if it had the side benefit of giving the ball more time to drop)
I enjoy finding loopholes in systems and I’m not trying to be a pain or start an argument… I’m just generally curious as to what defines reasonable in this situation.
To me, to a certain extent, with the rules in place it’s reasonable to not approach a ball that might drop because once you do the clock starts… I realize this is a different interpretation of the words reasonable amount of time…
I think the rule is fine as is, and I think people acting in good faith understand how it’s supposed to work.
I agree, except that even top professionals in this field don’t have a great knowledge of the Rules that govern their profession. I certainly hope my doctor or lawyer has a better grasp of THEIR rules than Kooch does of his.
Interestingly, in match play you have the option of conceding your opponent’s next putt and removing the ball, as long as you have waited the appropriate amount of time. And of course if your opponent is wandering around picking up clubs he’s thrown, he’s not close enough to have determined that the ball is overhanging the hole, he’s got no grounds for asking for a ruling.
The rule actually HAS changed. Rule 13.2c says:
If a player’s ball comes to rest against the flagstick left in the hole:
If any part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green, the ball is treated as holed even if the entire ball is not below the surface.
Our group of retirees plays this as ‘holed’. The Rules of Golf Overlords messed up with getting one part of the rule adjustment correct while neglecting its apparent counterpart.
I’m wondering what “adjustment” was correct, and what was not. The “Overlords” didn’t adjust any Rules of Golf in this regard, they only provided some guidance as to how to deal with COVID measures for posting of scores for handicap. For instance, if a Hole isn’t at least 4 inches deep, its not a valid hole. Not a valid hole would mean that scores can’t be posted in normal times. But the USGA has accepted the “pool noodle” as an option, and suggested that a ball that has come to rest on the noodle is “holed”, even when its not completely below the level of the green.
That’s it. They courses I’ve played, and I’m sure everyone’s MMV, are inconsistent with length?/depth?. Sometimes the ball is nearly below the surface, often not. This varied not only course to course, but hole by hole on the same course… What I saw last year on several occasions is where a putt or pitch would hit the pit, rebound off the noodle liner and bounce out of the hole.
Because our group of old guys play ‘social’ rounds, the etiquette would be to offer that the shot was holed. The “putter” would accept or decline. If the ball was rolling slowly enough that it rebounded just a few inches from the hole, the offer would generally be accepted, based on the feeling that the lip of the cup would have kept the ball within the confines of the hole. If the ball came to rest much beyond that, the offer was declined. A very, "local+ local rule. 