How many putts do you average per round? You normally play 79-83? Since you seem to be tracking data?
Average score over last 20 is 83.2, handicap is 8.1 currently. I have quite a few good rounds lately, so on average I’d expect both to be about one stroke worse. Average 33.1 putts per round.
Do the math…33/83 is 40%. 40% of your normal game is putting? 8 GIR…hmmm well that’s putting lofted club around a green in hand at least 10 times, and I’ll say another at least 12 times from a FW after or with a tee ball…so that 22-23x outta 83 so 25% and I think it’s probably more? Don’t tell me that short game isn’t the damn game it’s over 65% of your game…
Dude, it’s math, work on the part you are scoring with… Take the doubles outta play, plot yourself around a course…seems to me you are just winding up and swinging with no purpose…
Just because you hit more short game shots doesnt mean they’re more important. For example, probably 12-14 of those 33 putts are tap ins which everyone who can break 110 make. Ive never chipped a ball OB, but Ive hit plenty of drives and long approaches OB. You hit fewer long shots but they matter a lot for scoring. As long as youre not making a habit out of 2-chipping its hard to bleed that many strokes greenside.
Read what you just wrote for goodness sakes…tap ins are still a stroke, every stroke is counted period!..When you learn that golf is NOT a Game of HOW…it’s a game of HOW MANY…you’ll actually do better than you are and shave off more strokes, How many FW hit, how many GIR, how many strokes gained scrambling, how many strokes gained putting. It’s how many, not how…no one cares if you teed off every hole with a 3W…you play to your strengths, not your weakness, you get better practicing on the range, you get better practicing 3ft putts so they become automatic 97% of the time. How Many, how many how many…I don’t care if you putt with a 7i…its still how many
Think of it this way. If I hit every putt inside 2-feet for a tour pro, their score would basically be the same. If I hit every drive for a tour pro their scores would skyrocket. In both cases I’ll have hit more or less the same number of shots.
The correct conclusion: Being good at driving is much more important than being good at tap ins.
Alternatively, imagine a world where everytime you hit the green you have to take an auto 2-putt. You’ll still end up with almost half your shots being putts, but putting skill doesnt matter at all in this world.
You’re not a touring pro, first of all and I sure as hell am not …get off the tour stats, that is a game only about 250 people in the world can play. Touring pros work on how many too…just at a different level. BUT just for giggles, Henrick Stenson played 80% of his teeballs with a 3W…did anyone care when he won the open and shot lites out 62…how many, how many…
Replace tour pro with scratch golfer and the point is exactly the same.
No it’s not, forget what they do and control what you do, and I’ll tell you you need to improve your short game alot!. Let me help you understand how important shortgame is… you’re at augusta, you’ve hit 72 GIRs, a new masters record! but none closer than 20ft…do you think you break par. Do you think you break 80 if I place the ball…that’s how important short game is…krikee you might not break 90…like 15 yesterday…you could literally putt it into the hazard if you were above the hole
Well Im not going to continue this any further. If you want to work on tap ins, thats your perogative, but I will not be following suit.
Well you let me know when tap ins don’t count as a stroke ok Here’s something for you to chew on from The USGTF: https://www.usgtf.com/the-importance-of-the-short-game/ or https://golfstatscoach.com/blog/2019/8/20/do-you-really-need-a-good-short-game Play the video
I think if you read modern statistically based analyses, you’ll read that the difference between two handicap levels, in general, is about 2/3 full swing shots and 1/3 short game and putting, combined. These would include Every Shot Counts, Lowest Score Wins, and of the Decade principles. This is the research, using statistics from every level of golfer, that fuels this type of conversation.
@jon published a piece for which he compared his accuracy with 3-wood vs driver, and found out that he could hit 3 wood all day, give up 20 or 30 yards every time, and MAYBE hit one more fairway. His conclusion, the distance he gave up was a much bigger obstacle to scoring than missing one extra fairway hitting driver. Of course this relates stats for a single golfer, but its a pretty common thread across most players.
You’re pretty dismissive of @greenOak and tap-in, but he’s really talking about the value of improvement. If you make 99% of your 2-footers, and you practice those until you make 100&, you’ll gain a single stroke about once per 10 rounds or so, call it 0.1 strokes per round. Based on that, practicing two-footers is basically a waste of time. If you spend the same time practicing driver and gain 10 yards, while eliminating one tee shot in the woods per round, you’re ahead a full stroke or more every round. That’s 10 times the value.
1 Like
This summarizes it very well for me. For years I couldn’t hit driver, and frequently didn’t even carry one. A buddy took me out and showed me how to get off the tee with it; now, it’s one of the most reliable clubs in my bag.
HOWEVER - I agree with the premise of not hitting a club that brings trouble into play. We all choose to lay up or otherwise take trouble out of play on approaches; why not off the tee as well? Our 18th has a fairway bunker about 125 yards from the green. If I’m playing forward I hit driver, even with the narrow landing area since I can easily carry it. Playing back tees, driver stays in the bag because now the bunker’s squarely in play.
It also depends on the day. If I’m striping it off the tee then it’s driver. Struggling? Choose a more conservative play.
I love hitting driver, but I’m not in love with it.
Sounds like my home course!
I think that’s the big question, managing the ‘outliers’. We talk about dispersion patterns but not dispersion density. Better players’ dispersions are a bit denser around their target with the odd outlier. Higher handicap players, not so much; outlier likelihood is more common, density more uniform.
On the one hand, players would (very generally speaking) do well to “shorten” the course. On the other hand, double bogey (or worse) avoidance should rule the day.
Given high handicap players aren’t as skilled at approach shots, particularly ones with added complexity, double avoidance should rule. I’m thinking of approach shots that force a specific shot shape, trajectory, etc.
1 Like
Look I hit driver 10 times today. I have been coming over the top alot lately and hitting into trees and bushes. I have been chipping out just to get it onto play. That is my problem to correct, but just for the helluvit and I know this doesn’t belong here but here are my stats. 1) LW 60 3rd shot 25 ft short made putt for 4, Driver against OB fence, Drop, 5i, running hook that didn’t hook, LW 4th 65 to 12 ft made bogey putt, 3) Duck hook driver, top 3w, 3w to 85, SW to 16ft, 2 putt, long par 3, fringe 2 putt par, 5) hybrid to 100, trap wedge to 13ft 2putt par, 6) 6i to 120, fanned 9i, missed green by 40 yds, SW to 8ft 2 putt, 7) Dr fanned under tree, chip out sideways, 140, 9i to 25ft, made par, 8)9i to 18ft powerlip for duece made par, 9 Dr in FW finally, 7w to 25ft 2 putt. 10) Dr hooked again into jail, chip out, 170 7i to 18ft, 2putt bog, 11) Bad hole, perfect 3W to 165, hit 7 I, bad hop bunker, 2 shots in bunker, 2 putt DBL, 12) Dr FW, PW from 109, 19 ft 2 putt Par, 13) Duck hook again, 7w to 40yds, LW to 8ft, 2 putt bogey, 14) PW from 124 to 4 inches, duece, 15) Ducky again , 3W to 65, LW to 12 ft, 2 putts, 16) Ducky again, 7w to 22 ft, 2 putt par, 17) 9i from 149, 23 ft short, 2 putt par, 18) fanned a Dr, hybrid top 30 yds short, bumped a 7i to 3 ft, par. So my proximity to the hole taking out the fan on 6 was 13.5 ft. So 76, 32putt 1.78, GIR-9, shots lost Driver 7, shots gained short game 14, shots gained putter 4. Embrace the Driver? I almost snapped it…except I didn’t wanna pay for a shaft. It was actually a fun round other than all the recovery. But yeah…I spoke to our PGA pro about my, shall we say conversation, he seemed to agree with me you want to keep it in play off the tee…but as you can see I gained 14 shots with my wedges and another 3 with the putter. Throw out #6 and my proximity to hole was 13 ft.
Justin Thomas, neither dumb nor short, just hit a driver off the 10th tee.
1 Like
You play a short course, you are one of the top 100 wedge players in the world, and you are a 6? What is the rating of this course? What is your index?
1 Like
I’m going to say this one more time, you guys really need to stop quoting stats from PGA tour .com. Those are stats from players who are playing the the toughest setups in the world. I went to college in Rochester. I played a round with Slu when he was at the top of his powers at my course from like 6300 yd course. Understand, they were playing eventss at 7000 yds plus in the late 80s. He was screwing around and dropped a 58. On courses we play with no pressure, no nothing they are dropping shots on a dime. I really don’t think you fathom how good touring pros are. You just don’t. Our course is 70.8/126 from tips, 6190. There are 5…90" doglegs that require precision from tees to your preferred length second shot. Now what I like about our course is you will hit every club in your bag at least once. Our course is a 1927 Findlay designed gem. It’s an EZ walk, they encourage walking, my doc wants me to walk, but I don’t carry anymore I use a Pushcart now…i never thought I’d be doing that…but compromise is a bitch!and we have a long history of tour players from the 50s and 60s that have come out of our ranks. There are at least 5 blind tee shots, We take alot of pride in our golf course, although we’ve started losing a ton of trees lately so we are planting 2 for everyone we are losing. BTW, I certainly don’t know how good my wedge game would be on hard as rock greens with massively tucked pins, but it wouldn’t be what I normally do. When I was 25-32 I was a 2.4, I was a golf professional for 4 years. Then family happened and I had to give it up to raise a family. I’m currently a 6.7 as of today on my home course. I am a Bflight player now as our A flight is 5 or below. I’m in my 60s now and had a massive injury and was shelved for 2 years, I couldn’t touch a club and my wife made certain of that. I just started playing again last year 20 rounds, but I finally got medical clearance to start playing regularly again. Does that help you? I was a PGA professional for 4 years…all I did was bash balls, give lessons and clean carts, work the proshop, run outings and play alot of golf. So was I better than an average player…at my best I would regularly break 70, could I beat up on most amateurs…yeah I could and yeah I did. I will admit to this, I’m not, not even close to the best wedge players in the world, but I’m still one of the best at our club…