I think this is a great use of local rules (even if it’s your group and not the course)… keeps things fair inside the group and makes the game more fun.
Deflating handicaps and lack of familiarity with bad lies is a side bonus for the rest of us, if we ever have to play you in a match!
Should you always get a result commensurate with the quality of the shot?
Should you be punished for hitting a ball 40 yards offline, towards the woods? If that ball hits a tree and bounces into the fairway, should you be required to throw it into the woods?
Our game began a decade ago on a very rough muny. Not uncommon to have hard pan or rocks in the fairway. Seems like less than 20% of divots being filled.
Closely mown areas only. Ball is played down everywhere else.
Well that’s why rules are changed, for example, most recently tamping down imperfections in your putting line, but way back you couldn’t even fix a ball mark on a green if it was on your intended line. And Barry…absolutely a stymie was part of playing conditions. How would you like to be in match play with me and you have a 3 ft for birdie, and I blocked you…that’s a playing condition forcing you to actually play away from a hole…
Dave,
Fairway is fairway, no asks you how? One of my partners this year had 2 “ACES” except his first shot was dunked. It’s a fancy name for a par. In golf they never really ask you how, only how many. I’m being very specific here and it is just my opinion. Ball in a divot, on a fairway only, should be a clean and drop. 
Yes, when stymies were allowed, they were part of the conditions. I never said otherwise. I did say that an opponent’s ball is not the same, IMO, as the condition of the ground. And I don’t think that playing defense is a fundamental part of golf (which is effectively what stymies are).
I think it’s reasonable to expect to play my ball without interference from my opponent but I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect my ball to be in perfect conditions/lie anywhere including the fairway. Breaks that come from the ball interacting with the golf course, both good and bad, are part of the game.
We’ll just have to disagree. I don’t think you ever “deserve” a perfect lie once you’ve put the ball in play on a hole. Beyond that, I don’t believe there’s a way to effectively write this rule, to define a divot hole, and to define when it stops being a divot hole, that stops short of allowing preferred lies in the fairway at all times. And I’m happy that the USGA and R&A specifically looked at this situation, and chose not to change the rules regarding divot holes in 2019.,
I find that being a nit is not optimal for most domains.
It is absolutely necessary in a few areas, but I don’t recommend it most of the time.
My course is a decently maintained muni, we’re lucky as they allow us to walk without paying for a riding cart. The super has rule in place, because the course takes on everyone…we know the players I’m talking about, they don’t repair ballmarks, they’ll take an 8" chunk out of the fairway and not replace it, i’ve seen them drive a cart on the green types…he does NOT want us playing out of divots, find a chunk , replace it anywhere and press it down…use divot mix as we have those bottles all over the place. Remember a fixed divot only takes about 48 hours to repair, It takes almost a 3 weeks for a non replaced divot to repair. The “membership” knows get on a green, repair your ball mark plus 2 more! It helps him do his job.
Like I said just my opinion…sounds like you’re a purist…so you don’t agree with allowing spike marks or ball marks to be fixed on your intended putting line? See I like that “new rule” alot!
fair enough, there are some extreme examples where this kind of local rule makes a lot of sense. if most or all shots are affected by poor conditions, then improving lies is ok by me. it’s the edge cases like divot holes that I don’t think should be addressed by a rule.
No, I don’t think you should be touching or improving your line.
I’ll give you a scenario and you could say what you like. I hit a 250yd+ stripe it, ball ends up in 4" long 1/2" deep divot at the end of it in the middle of a fairway. My opponent hits 10yds off the fairway in to a 3" deep patch of ruff 40 yds behind me, the ball plugs. He gets a lift clean and drop no closer to the hole, but he measures out 1 club length and can fairly drop into a 1 inch deep patch of ruff…So you feel that’s just “Rub of the Green”…I guess that’s where we differ. My opponent gets to put the club on the ball and is “rewarded by the rules”, and I stripe it and have no shot…and yes it’s happened to me…and that’s where I differ with the rule, then don’t allow tamping of spike marks.
First, you didn’t answer the question I posed, do you think the Rules of Golf should ensure that your result is directly commensurate with the quality of the shot you hit? You seem to want that for a shot in the fairway, does it apply elsewhere too?
But more generically, rules aren’t written for individual scenarios, you can always find a way to make any rule look unfair. But to directly answer your question, yes, that’s rub of the green. Not fair necessarily, but neither life nor golf is always fair.
Historically, putting greens have always been treated as “special places”, and that treatment has become more pronounced as the condition of greens has improved. Water, chemicals, knowledge, grass varieties, and equipment have all changed over the years, and green conditions have consistently become better. The changes allowing repair of any defect on the green is a response to those improvements, we expect more perfection on the green. I actually responded to the Rule survey in 2018 opposing that change, but it really hasn’t had a significant effect, in my experience.
No, my pet peeve is hitting the ball into any unrepaired divot in a fairway, how your ball finds that fairway like hitting into a tree matters not, even if the magic tree monkey miraculously tosses it back onto a fairway; only that it’s in a fairway, I’m not talking striping one and hitting the 150 concrete marker taking a high bounce and going into the pond…you’re taking a drop and hitting 3!..that’s not what I’m talking here (to me that’s “Rub of the Green”). A golfer should not be punished for being in a fairway in a hackers 1" deep divot or the better players 1/4" divot. A fairway is not a hazard or Penalty Area! Just as a golfer should not be punished by someone leaving inconsistencies from their spike marks around a hole on a putting surface. AND yes in tourneys it was done on purpose so the group behind would have to putt through minefields, believe me I know golf can be a rather ruthless sport especially with millions on the line. That’s why the rules changed about tamping down spike marks on the greens. The major greens rules changes didn’t happen until the 1950’s and 1960’s, (the stymie wasn’t eliminated until 1952)…it used to be, play it where it lies, how it lies and don’t touch anything on the intended putting line. Designers usually set up their course design to reward great shots, sometimes messing with the design defeats the purpose…like Pinehurst #2. If they let rough grow around the greens that actually rewards off line shots because it stops the ball from rolling 25 yds away. I don’t like drops from knee height, to me, if you hit into the ruff, especially deep stuff,is a reward, way different then dropping into 3" ruff from shoulder height. AND I’m not talking imperfections in the fairway either, you hit into a grassless patch well that’s life…I’m specifically speaking of divots and everyone who plays this this game with some semblance of it being a gentleman’s game and playing it with some purity knows what a divot is and is not.
Everybody should know what temporary (casual) water is, and when a ball is embedded. Yet the Rulemakers found is necessary to specifically define those terms, and even include drawings for the embedded ball. They would need to do just the same thing for a ball in a divot hole, it would be unenforceable to allow each player or each group or each rules official to make up his own mind. And there’s really no way to define a divot hole, and particularly how to define when its no longer a divot hole.
Casual water also includes your stance, if you draw water as you stand … it’s casual water. If a ball embeds in a fairway or anywhere you get a drop except in a hazard or penalty area. There shouldn’t be too many “imperfections” in a fairway other than an occasional gopher hole or ground hornets nest, like on a green fixing “imperfections” if you catch what I’m saying. AND I’m not saying bare spot either that the grass has wilted away. Divot is Divot. I mean you hit a fairway the grass is lush except for the 2" x 4" barespot you ball came to rest in and the area is slightly depressed…I think we are getting away from what we all know a divot is and it is not what Rory or Patrick would call embedded balls…LOL
That’s why players “in the old days” would sometimes chip over the stymieing ball to try to hole it. I’d like to see that one day.
I am not advocating a rule change. I think stroke play tournaments played off scratch should strictly play the ball down.
I will probably quit improving my own lies ~ 1 month before club championship, hit some balls off of hardpan and out of divots in practice rounds.
Thanks Dave, will give it a watch!