Golf course design

General Discussion
#1

@Golfer_Jake_78 asked this on Twitter…

https://twitter.com/golfer_jake_78/status/1401640575120592896?s=21

The basic question being: is a 60 foot tall tree in the middle of the fairway 80 yards from the green on a 510 yard par 5 a good idea?

My personal belief is that course should make players make a choice and reward proper execution…

This just feels like an after thought to me… a 510 yard straight par 5 is fairly boring in terms of design… the tree makes it harder, but not more interesting… a creek or a fairway bunker could do the same thing without punishing people without enough clubhead speed to hit over the tree.

Anyone have a favorite design feature? Or a hated one?

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#2

I’m looking at this a bit differently; the relevant question is “Is a tall-ass tree right in front of the green on this hole a good idea?”. Nope, nope, nope. This green is bunkered front and back, so depending on pin position, trajectory and distance control can come into play. Green slope and elevation are also considerations.

I agree with you that use of natural features and man-made (bunkers) add a layer of decision making without making it more difficult.

One of my favorite holes at an area course is a 170 yd par-3 of redan design. The green is slanted front right to rear left and is fronted by water. Pin position is key to determine club selection, start line and trajectory. It’s really a fun little hole to play.

Good post, thanks.

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#3

The tree works if it’s further back affecting your tee shot. That close to the green is a course designer that realized he made a boring, easy hole and said welp now this is a three shot hole for pretty much everybody. Wrong? I guess not. Boring and lazy? Definitely.

I’m guessing at this course budget and landscape didn’t allow for a thin creek running along one side or even through the fairway say 30-40 yards short of the green creating a real decision.

I think what would have been better here is narrowing the approach to the green and lining each side with trees. Makes the approach difficult, but not impossible. Good players still have to decide whether they want to try for it in two with probably a long iron or hybrid or lay up and wedge it in.

100 ways this could have been done and, IMO, they made the 101st choice.

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#4

Yeah, I think my biggest issue with it is you “don’t want to take on the tree” which basically eliminates 40 yards of the fairway in the center, as you don’t want to be 20 yards short of it and can’t really get to 20 yards past it…

It’s a manageable feature, but I think it will unfairly punish shorter players who can’t loft the ball up… at 260 yards off the tee box, it’s an interesting problem for longer hitters and allows the shorter guys to go around.

It’s also going to continue to get worse until the tree falls over…

I’d bet it was a fine feature when the tree was young and 20-30 feet tall.

#5

I’ve played a few holes with a tree in the middle, but the tree usually is just a bare trunk for most of its height, with leaves or needles near the top. That really doesn’t bother me much, its not too difficult to get past the tree with a second shot, or to try to lay back and leave plenty of room to get around it for the third.
Based on this:


The tree is a pine of some sort, untrimmed, so it presents a much wider obstacle, so its much more intrusive for players at all levels of ability. I don’t like it.
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#6

This actually makes it look less intrusive than the satellite overhead shot I saw. Still bad, but not as bad as I was thinking. Nice high cut around that thing and you can get on in two.

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#7

People do all kinds of stupid things with oak trees here in tx

Not at the nice tracks but there are some ridiculous tree placements at some of the munys

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#8

You won’t have many trees to worry about on Sunday.

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#9

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You see a lot of this where 20 years of tree growth has completed changed whatever the initial obstacle was supposed to be

There is about a 10 yard by 10 yard landing zone where you have an unimpeded shot to the green here

What is supposed to be a risk reward hole turns into 5 iron then 7iron in for me

Big hitters can carry left tree

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#10

A lot of this in eastern South Dakota where I grew up. My high school team home course was tiny fairways, tiny greens all surrounded by massive oaks. It’s an old Leonard Macomber design that’s since been rerouted many times, but it used to host a PGA event from 1950-1952, then Ben Hogan Tour events, then eventually a Monday Q site for the Nike Tour Dakota Dunes event.
Back in the day the trees weren’t as imposing, but, as things do over the course of 80 years, they grew to be pretty harsh in some areas. When I played there was a stretch of six holes where the landing areas were only 15-20 yards wide. While not a terribly difficult course, if you’re not accurate off the tee a 68 quickly becomes an 88.
I used to hate it, but it really helped hone(force) me into being accurate off the tee. The head pro and superintendents have done a really good job of keeping the trees at bay while still offering a big challenge, but there are a lot of courses in surrounding small towns that use gimmicky stuff like this tree in the middle of the fairway near the green.
Like I said before, I find it lazy. The good ones create obstacles without being gimmicky.
The old #5, now #10 at Two Rivers Golf Club is a slight dogleg left with big oaks left and right. There’s a small fairway bunker on the left side around 250 yards off the tee with a big oak just past it on the left side. It’s perfectly placed to penalize most for going left. Long hitters can go over or around it but are met with a harsh slope and more tree trouble. The right side is dead, too. It’s a really good golf hole that uses a perfectly placed tree to make a reachable 500 yard par 5 really tough if you miss.
More of that. Less of a tree in the fairway near the green.

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#11

Having just played the hole yesterday, it has no effect on long hitters. The round was a 2 man tournament, and we were playing into a 10-15 mph wind. I hit a good drive, but I’m not a bomber. I had 278 left. My partner crushed his tee shot and had 226 left. My partner easily cleared the tree and made birdie, so no issue for our team.

I tried play to the right of the tree, to about a 20 yard wide area, pulled it slightly, caught the tree and ended up right underneath it with a punch shot. Note there is 8-10 feet clearance to punch under the tree.

Worse than this was another player in our group didn’t hit a great tee shot, but hit a good recovery that ended up about 120 from the green. He couldn’t play at the green because he couldn’t get his approach high enough, fast enough, to carry the tree. So he had to punch around it and pitch on in 4.

There are times when a tree in the fairway is good. This is not one of those times.

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#12

I actually really like Two Rivers. Yes there are tons of trees but I felt it was very fair for the most part, though 10 and 11 border on a little too tight.

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#13

I completely agree, but as a 12-16 year old who sprayed it all over the yard and spent a lot of time in those trees, I hated it for a long time. I really enjoy going back and playing once in a while. My dad still plays there 2-3 times a week.

Old 10 and 11 are now 3 and 4 and yes, they are tight, especially 4 - especially because you almost HAVE to come in from the right side because of another really well place oak tree in front of the front left bunker.

There used to be a ton of really overgrown trees on the old back 9. Some areas were absolutely brutal and completely unforgiving. Rodd and company have done a great job thinning out certain areas while keeping it a challenge. The new layout is a lot of fun and they’re making changes to the old number 7 (now 16 I think) - big dogleg right - where they carved out all of the overgrowth and I believe will be making it a pond, which changes that hole significantly.

I forget you’re so well traveled in this area.

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#14

I have only played it once, I think in 2018. Need to get back. Rodd is such a good dude.

When you say old 10/11, when did they reroute it?

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#15

Good question. April 2020 was the first time in quite a few years that I had been back to play it, so I’m not entirely sure.

Scratch that. Looks like it was 2009 when they did the new routing.

So 10 is the par 5 I was referencing before and 11 is a super tight par 4 coming back the other way.

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