Issue is the standard used to be no more than one hole of daylight between your group and the group in front of you you are out of position. Now you could have 3 holes open and still be in position. No Bueno! If you’ve ever ran a course,you will find that is what pisses players off. Especially if you are waiting every hole, Then you end up with 4 groups on any particular hole, then you get up on the group causing the backups and the music is blaring from a phone in their cart, drinking beers, cart girls come around and they are enjoying a hot dog BBQ. And then waving groups thru causes an even worse backup. The standard is keep your position no more than one hole of daylight. If you install that system I wish u luck Automated system really needs tweaking if it is to work properly.
Our course standard is 3:58. We have some groups that play faster; they’re encouraged to get the early tee times.
Standards are different everywhere. I marshaled at a course in California this winter where 4:30-4:40 was considered perfectly acceptable on weekends. This wouldn’t be tolerated at my home course…
I tell our PAs that an open hole is a red flag, but check circumstances. Is there a gap in the tee sheet? Is the group in front ahead of pace? If a group is on time we’re not going to ask them to speed up; we might ask them if they’d mind if the folks behind them played through.
It’s a juggling act trying to manage everyone’s expectations.
Lots of different things piss players off, including having a group of jackrabbits pressing them when they’re playing at a reasonable pace. Pace of play will always be a compromise between the fastest and the slowest. Having a PoP “clock” allows the rangers and the pro shop staff a specific tool to enforce a minimum standard. Of course a slower group should let you through, but you really don’t have a right to expect everyone to get out of your way, especially on your third 9 of the day.
YOUR standard may be to maintain your position, no matter how fast the group in front of you, but that’s not universal. I can understand why you’d be disappointed with the change in policy, because it affects you, but it may help the staff and the majority of golfers to enjoy themselves more.
Well we would agree then to disagree. Even though we are a muni, we have 200+players in our members association. I will tell you that PoP is the #2 bitch of the association having just completed our annual meeting. The #1 complaint is loss of membership loyalty tee times and it has become a free for all. With the advent of Covid tee times are at a premium, and the novice golfers coming to our course have no sense of etiquette, do not replace divots, we have geo-fense and they continually get their carts stuck on fairways trying to cross when they are told to stay on paths. It’s been an absolute nightmare because of the affordability of our course. We were the best kept secret until last year. Calling players that play this game jack rabbits because we play on average of 3.5 hours to 3.75 hours is an insult. When you have 4 groups on a par 3, because it is a very difficult hole, and it’s the 4th hole of everyone’s round is a problem for association members that have been playing here for decades. As a former ranger/starter and having been a former golf professional at 2 other public courses, the standard rule of keeping less than 1hole of daylight between you and the group in front of you is in keeping with proper pace of play. One group can cause a backup that can last up to 3 hours and exacerbate an issue as the group that has caused the issue might be on time, but the groups behind will be the ones experiencing 4.5 to 4.75 hour rounds.
I always skip groups when playing as a single and moving like a “jack rabbit”.
If the group in front is on pace, I don’t think it is fair to stay on their a** and try and play through.
Just easier on everyone
To be fair I haven’t played as a single in like 15 years. I’ve mostly blast the range and practice facility when I’m on my own. Playing in a 2 some we won’t press anyone, BUT once you get a 2-3 group back up on just 1 hole it’s just math. Takes each group approximately 10-12 minutes to play a hole. 3.75 hours becomes 4.7 hours just like that. That’s why keeping within reason of the group in front of you is of utmost importance. 2-3 holes out and not paying attention to your surroundings is an issue. You now get 2 minutes to find a “lost ball” So 2-3 lost balls by folks that can’t keep it on the planet on one or 2 holes in a row, and spending 5-7:minutes in the flora and fauna searching and finding 6 other balls other than your own. I hope you all are seeing what I’m saying here causes an issue. The woods shouldn’t be considered an alternative to Dicks Sporting Goods. I blow one off the map, which we all do, I give it a glance, it went OB I play a provisional or drop quickly moving forward.
I’ve been golfing for 47 years and The Code has always been keep up with group in front of you. When I flight a ball into the heather, I look for point of entry and drop. Damned if I’ll get Lyme disease over a Wilson. Or, a Titlest, for that matter. Hit and move on…
I think generally, the goal should always be to keep up with the group in front of you… but if the course has a Pace of Play and a group is matching it, you can’t really complain… They set the expectations, and the group has met them… As a faster player, it’s super frustrating, but it’s the cost of having a set pace of play.
I think it’s a delicate balance, and an interesting problem. Rushing people through the course is a bad look, but it’s really frustrating to wait on every shot for a 20 handicap to plumb bob a 30 foot putt… Honestly, I think people on both sides should try to be understanding… if you are moving slow, find a place to let a fast group play through… if you catch up to a slow group, give them a chance to speed up or let you through before getting frustrated…
Though, this is a much bigger problem on courses that aren’t super crowded… once the tee sheet is full under 4 hours is a miracle. Or at least it is in my area.
When I was learning golf my grandfather always told me “you can be bad, but be bad fast”
There’s definitely a balance to strike. We want to be welcoming to new players, but they also need to know when to pick up and move on
My dad was the same… but others learned differently… I’m trying to have a more open mind, and give people the benefit of the doubt… we’ve set expectations at a 4 hour round, so it’s hard to blame people for playing in 4 hours.
I second that…oh yeah one more teeny tiny thing…our muni is actually a public park owned and operated by county and overseen by the politicians. The PoP was not set by the Pro nor the Association members…it was set by a politician who is in charge of the public parks and he “heard” that 4:15 would be a great time…LOL. One more thing, he’s not a golfer and his only experience with the sport is playing in an outing…So yea…not to be political. When we had “loyalty” tee times Saturday and Sunday sheets were full and PoP was never an issue. The new fangled carts, and elimination of loyalty times has kind of thrown a wrench into the mix…and they have already lost 35 members who went to a different course further away but is interested in taking care of the association first because we tend to use the facility alot more. I guess it’s always good to hear the whole story instead of me bitching about half the story…
This is the kind of thing that raises my hackles a bit. This group played their THIRD nine of the day at a 3-hour (for 18 holes) pace. I think that qualifies as jackrabbit pace, and honestly taints any complaints about enforcement of a 4:15 pace as a general rule. This type of group seems likely to complain about a 3:30 pace.
I’ll never suggest that slower groups should NOT let faster groups through, when there’s a reasonable gap in front of them, that’s the right thing to do. But establishment of a Pace of Play standard is a great tool for golf course management to use, it gives them a very objective standard to use when policing the course.
Anyway, complaints about slow play don’t really belong in a thread about the fastest rounds. Fastest I can remember recently is 3:15, walking, my trolley went 6 miles so I bet I walked closer to 6.5 or 7, 550 feet of vertical, just two of us on a Tuesday morning. Given the terrain, and some long walks from green to tee, that’s not too bad, it was certainly unhurried. Its nice to be a member of a club.
We used to have an annual family golf outing, blocking out four tee times, bringing together players with… varying skills. My uncle, the tournament “director” had a couple rules:
His group would be first off the tee. He didn’t want to look back to see any open holes.
Regardless of how you were playing, a double bogey was your highest score. If you haven’t holed out by double-bogey time - pick up, you’ve had enough swings.
First 18 played in 3 hours and 50 minutes. We have to make a separate tee time for the 3rd 9…we’re just not flying around the course and the expectation is 1.75 to 2 hours for our 3rd 9. So all in for 27 holes we are looking to stay just under 5.5 - 6 hours. That is not unreasonable. Maybe I’m not communicating effectively enough. When we look to hit 2.5 hours to 3 hours to complete that 3rd 9 we just go in. Plus our course is fairly compact…think augusta national going from 11 to 12. The tee boxes and greens ae right there…
To go to the other end of the spectrum, I once played at the Links at Spanish Bay at Pebble Beach. I’d made an advance tee time for around 10 a.m., but no one else took at a tee time at 10, and the pro shop wouldn’t let me go it alone. I got paired up with three more: two, a father-and-son combination, both playing, who took a photo of each other, each and every shot, and then showed every one of them to each other, and a single who had his girlfriend along, not playing but taking video of every shot. Each of these groups had a cart; I was walking.
We teed off at 10:30. In the middle of the 11th fairway, at 2:45 p.m., a marshall finally showed up to tell us that we were so far behind any reasonable POP that there were no longer any golfers on the golf course ahead of us. I’m standing there thinking, “if you’d only let me go on my own at 10, I’d be sitting in the clubhouse right now having a late lunch.” The marshall brought an end to the photo/video shoot that was going on, and we managed to finish around 4:30 for a six-hour round of golf when it was clear the foursome I was in was the sole reason for the backup on the course!
Needless to say, I avoided mentioning anything to my playing partners at the end of the round that it had been a pleasure playing with them. . .
That’s so sad, but I can sympathize. I get the open space in front of you, obviously that wasn’t the problem. I would have liked to have seen and heard the 40 car pile up behind you. Oh my good gracious. Surprised you didn’t say people were firing into you…
Yikes. So many things wrong here…
Where in hell had the marshal been all this time? You should probably see a marshal at least twice in a four hour round even if there are no issues. This guy was totally asleep at the switch.
I’m shocked that nobody called the pro shop to complain! If it’s taking an hour and a half to play 4 holes I’d have been on the phone immediately. @lwildernorva, did you consider calling?
I understand that courses need policies for this sort of thing. Were you informed ahead of time or when you arrived at the course? If it was the latter, that’s poor tee sheet management. They weren’t going to be able to sell that block on such short notice.
Did you complain to the shop after your round, letting them know their decision spoiled your round? It doesn’t get your time back, but many courses will try and toss a golfer a bone in those circumstances. At the very least, they’re aware that their on-course staff failed miserably and can take steps to address that.
Finally, is there a reason you didn’t offer your group an excuse (appointment, early dinner date, etc.) and move on ahead?
Sorry to hear that. I’ve played Spanish Bay and it’s a gorgeous layout. The pro shop decision to not let you out at your booked tee time is curious. You are a better man than I for not asking your playing partners if you could “play through”.
I’ve been back several times since, and even on that day, it was a beautiful, if frustrating experience. The last time I was there, in August 2018, I saw Don Shula having lunch in the grill room and as I finished my round, there was a bagpiper by the 18th green playing just before the sun set. I’m not certain what the deal with the pro shop was–this round was somewhere back in the 1990s, and I think some pro shop policies about singles have loosened up since then. It is also possible that all the groups ahead of me were foursomes, and they just didn’t want a single wedged in behind all those groups.
I’ve always felt that at the more expensive courses, management should keep marshalls (or player assistants if you want a friendlier name) on the course at fixed intervals to keep an eye on situations like this. With the greens fees at places like Spanish Bay and all of its cousins at Pebble Beach, there can’t be an argument that the courses can’t afford the cost. The situation I was in should have been headed off long before the 11th hole.
^ That is great!!!
Def going to work on that … getting it close the first time (since every round is really a practice round for me - don’t compete, don’t maintain a handicap). Gonna try to get my wife to play that way, too 