Course Fairness

I played Southern Dunes near Orlando for the first time recently. Everyone in my group ranked it first or second out of the five courses we played except me. Dead last. Am I being too hard on it?

I’m not sure if “course fairness” is any kind of well-established metric, but I felt that the course was unfair. I think the penalty you get for a bad shot should be proportional to how bad the shot is. If you miss the sweet spot and your approach ends up a little short, the penalty is that you have a longer putt: that’s fair. If you hosel a 4-iron out of bounds, your penalty is that have to hit the shot again: fair.

Several times on Southern Dunes, I feel like the penalty was out of proportion. On one hole I missed the fairway by a couple feet and ended up in a sandtrap that was about 80 yards long. That’s not so surprising because there is a lot of sand on that course. What I was left with was a 180 yard approach out of the sand with a tree overhanging. I say cut back that tree or get rid of the sand. A slight pull with my driver shouldn’t be punished like that.

On another hole I had a PW approach into a pretty tricky green. It was clear that I needed to be short and right if I was get close to the pin. Well, I pulled that shot a little and went right at the pin. When I got up there I had rolled off the left side of the green down a big hill and now had a 25 yard chip shot up the hill into what was obviously a big false front. I expected that I wouldn’t be tight and I’d be stuck with a 30 foot putt, but it was much worse than that.

I was surprised that everyone else in my group liked it so much. I feel like they got punished worse than I did. So do I need to just toughen up? Or is it OK if I dislike a course because I don’t think it’s fair?

FWIW, the course was in great shape. I can’t remember when I’ve seen bunkers so perfectly maintained.

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I got to play Southern Dunes a year ago, and its definitely very challenging. In particular, the greens were very quick, and in many cases has some very severe slopes. But I didn’t find it to be really unfair. This may be a course where repeated play would allow you to understand even better where you needed to miss a shot, where you absolutely could not go, and how to play with your particular dispersion pattern. Sometimes its just golf, a slight miss leads to a full dropped shot, or even more.

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This. But that overhanging branch plus fairway bunker, sounds fairly rank. As @dkusleika said, ‘pick one or the other.’

The false front can be fun, if you know about it ahead of time. And the course doesn’t stick the hole on it, LOL. That was not a fun hole that day… Not least of which I exceeded my personal best with a PW by a couple of yards and flew the green.

Anyway, there’s tough but fair----I’d put Spyglass Hill there, though IMHO, it needs a Bethpage Black-esque warning sign at the first tee—and tough but ridiculous. Like left side of the fairway catching a slope, and balls running with enough speed down them to hop the bikini landing strip-sized rough, to shoot right into the Native Area. OB, F’ You! Please Drive Again.

Sounds like Southern Dunes might have a touch of the latter.

Hmmmm unfair? Like I said, I played Merion 2 days after Rosie won the Open. I was playing to around a -4 at the time I stopped counting after I hit 100. That was the 15th hole. Was it unfair? No! It was damn hard! You were penalized if you missed a fairway. The fairways were very tight. We played it at about 6700 yds. Almost all the way back. Greens were lightning. The point of the architect is mostly for the player to keep it very str8. Rough was just 4 inches deep. Greens were hard as concrete. You had to hit shots. It was a pleasure actually to play an Open Course. I played Bethpage, but not after an Open. It was hard from the middle tees. I don’t think hard means unfair. It means we suck relative to players that hit it str8, scramble well, and putt the lights out!

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I had never played the Pete Dye design but only the designed by his company and those who worked for him. Played Robert Trent Jones Jr designed local track of Chambers Bay.
Certainly intimidated the first time around those design without the knowledge of a local caddy.
The visual intimidation without knowing the turf of the landing spot is intriguing. Some landing spots looked to be so tiny from the tee box, but it actually opened up when we get to the point.
There is the “actually” penal , vs. the “visually intimidation” making the golfers believe it is tougher than actual.
No one likes to be penalized with a good tee shot. Especially when a tee shot landed in the middle of the fairway but ended up in a fairway bunker because of the sloped fairway designed to receive the tee shots from the middle of the fairway.

This is an interesting question, but I think you are viewing fairness incorrectly… your misses went into spots you shouldn’t have missed… had you missed the other way would you have been equally punished?

It makes the first run though a course harder, but future rounds more enjoyable. Things like “right of this fairway is dead”.

It’s no different than a water hazard. SomeTimes you just can’t miss to certain spots. It’s not fair, but it’s at least consistent.

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Never mind a golf course which is "difficult " to score low. Personally don’t like the “deceiving” part of the trickery built into the design.
Narrow fairways, fast packed down greens, taller rough, deep bunker…all fair. However, to deceive the first timer by using tricks of visual camouflage is not something I enjoy for the long run.
I would mind if playing a casual round as a never returning tourist, where scoring over triple digit only because of not knowing the set up from the architect.
This is why I favor Donald Rose’s design. Timeless.

The red is where I wanted to hit it, the green is where I actually hit it, and the blue is where I ended up.

I think this was hole 15 or 16 and we were finally learning our lesson. We were driving up to the greens to get the lay of the land on our approaches (it was 50 and rainy, so we had the course to ourselves). I probably should have aimed a little more right than the “perfect” shot as a slight pull was my miss that day. I had a little room left of the sand. Or maybe I should have hit the 9 instead of the PW to the big flat part of the green at the back and left myself a 50-foot putt. It would have been safer. I normally would play the middle distance with an upfront pin, but I was striking it so well that day.

This hole was the straw the broke the camel’s back for me. But I’ll get over it someday. :slight_smile:

I am going to preface this comment by saying that I am not trying to be a jerk. I think that hitting a ‘bad’ shot and the ensuing result being proportional is extremely subjective. To me, hitting a fairway bunker means that I am off line and can’t expect a clear view of the green with the best angle. But for you, hitting it off line means you should only have one problem to deal with. The proportional comment you made would mean that every shot off line should get exponentially punished. It could be the case that you go another 25 yards left, miss the bunker and the tree is no longer a problem. It is a case of circumstance that your specific shot and skill set leaves this as almost impossible. In which case, you should play the shot that will give you the best chance of success. You now have a choice to make, which the architect most likely thought of. Try to fire at this green with a nasty false front from a fairway bunker with a hero style hook, or lay up in front of it, chip/ pitch on and try to make your par.

Island greens see a lot of balls in the water from some VERY good shots. Watch the Players coming up in March.

I echo the sentiments of @davep043 and say that

If you look at that hole, there is a tree to the right (parallel to the bunker)and besides that, the 80 yard bunker is the only defense the hole has off the tee. But a lot of scoring in golf comes from knowing where to miss so you don’t get stuck in a spot where you are blocked out aka dead.

See #9 at Augusta. There is always at least one day when they have a front pin. I’ve never played there, I have been there and I never saw #9 only on TV. When it’s a front pin…DO NOT hit the approach pin high, hit the same shot that will generate back spin, or God Forbid hit 1 foot short of the pin. You will have an impossible pitch off a tight lie and because of the sheer slop on the front of that green, the ball WILL COLLECT 40 yds away! If I ever played there and saw a front pin…I know always hit to at least the middle of the green or close to the back portion. There are other holes on that course like #16 and #4 there are places that a pin position will dictate where you hit your shot. Here’s the rub…you most likely can see the slope. I’m looking at your picture and just looking from above I can see the slope leading to a collection area, Looks to me that your yardage was off. If the green was soft you may have gotten lucky and the ball could have stuck. The play was long…Looks completely fair IMO! We have a green… #8… on my home course…Same thing…That’s called a SUCKER PIN. It’s risk/reward. I cannot tell you how many times I hit a 9 iron just not quite deep enough and I’m spun off the green because of the slope…and I’m like insane…don’t hit there and you won’t spin off the green into 3" rough… and I keep on repeating the same mistake!. One more thing as you are thinking about proportional penalties for an off line shot. Lets take your FW bunker scenario. A) you aint supposed to be in it. B) depending on the lie you will have a choice to make, alot of people don’t know how to even play out of a FW bunker C) depending on you position in the bunker, you may only have a choice to hit out sideways if its too deep ( see St Andrews #14 Hell Bunker or just forget me talking about anywhere on the course at Whistling Straits) You hit into Hell Bunker it is 95% of the time a 2 stroke penalty. Is that fair? Don’t hit in it and you won’t have to find out!

One other thing since you bought up#17 Sawgrass. I played it, I made a par. It’s about 2 things, knowing your distance and trusting your swing. #1) There is no bailout on that hole ( sends a shiver up your back), #2) what makes it hard is depth perception You really cant see the surface like you would like to. It’s a mind game…You get used to being able to see the ball land…If you are 8-9 yds off on your yardage either way…you’re probably going to be wet on #17 at Sawgrass… You can’t get a good feeling how much room there is after looking at the front slope! I mean even this camera angle is well above the eye level of the player!

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Why should a course be fair? There are courses that fit my game better than others. There are courses that just don’t fit my eye. However every course that I have played there is a way to navigate it with my game.

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Absolutely right. I played there in June 2019 and had forgotten from my one previous trip just how elevated the green on 17 is above the teeing area. If the teeing area were above the green, giving the golfer a better sense of the dangers, the hole would be a lot easier–and not as great.