True I’ve seen that quite a bit. Many players knowingly break the rule for an advantage, but I have seen players just not fully understand it as well. I’ve seen drops off cartpaths where the player had the right idea with the nearest point no closer to the hole, but then they have one foot on the cartpath so now they haven’t taken complete relief. I did this a few times when I first started playing thinking I was only allowed to get relief for the ball and my club hitting the cartpath.
1 Like
Some guys will tell me “I get complete relief, I don’t have to drop in that bush”. When I explain that Complete Relief means only relief from the cart path, they get a very confused look.
2 Likes
One of the hugest arguments I ever encountered was someone taking a drop from cart path because they had widened their stance slightly (maybe an inch or so) and were entitled to relief because part of the stance was on the path. The players ball was stymied by a large tree. There were 2 players who were insistent the player had to keep tree in line and I was nope, it’s the nearest point of relief NO CLOSER TO THE HOLE!. So the player in taking his proper drop got 1 club length into a decent lie and proceeded to make a par. He also played an improper drop keeping the tree in line as a stymie and proceeded to make 7. After the round the pro (who was the rules guy for the tournament) inspected the call and awarded the 4. Just to rub salt into the wound, the 4 gave the player a tournament win by 2 shots. Sometimes the rules work more for you than against you…
1 Like
Yeah I had an argument with a guy in my league over that. He kept saying “but I don’t have a swing under these bushes”. He wanted to drop closer to the hole. I told him to play 2 balls, 1 where he is allowed and 1 where he wanted and then ask the pro when we got in, but he refused that as well. He dropped illegally. On the plus side it made me so mad I beat him the last 4 holes to win and the pro agreed with me. Not to defend him, but we do have some “bad” areas on our course like that. You’re on the cartpath and have nowhere to go. Even if you took an unplayable there is nowhere (good) to go in a few places. In those spots the cartpaths are dirt so I will usually just hit from the path.
1 Like
Dave…
I actually have a interesting rules question for regarding a sand penalty area. I played my shot out of the bunker no complaint, but here is the question, We had a pretty steady rain Saturday and alot of the sand got kinda washed out. There are some plastic flexible drainage pipes along the edges of 2 of our bunkers and the rain exposed them. My stance was actually on one… the pro reamed me when one of my partners was talking about the nice bunker shot I played and he was standing on that 8inch flex pipe… The pro goes are you an a$$hole?, put a hole in that and that’s an expensive repair…don’t ever do that again! Move the ball! Technically, do you play that as it lies (there is no local rule on it, but now I think there will be) or does one drop in the bunker…all the rules we break…and I get reamed for what I think is playing the ball as it lies…I didn’t think (other than casual water) there would be an ACC in a sand penalty area
1 Like
Unless its artificially paved, you don’t get free relief.
You can definitely take relief from an Immoveable Obstruction, even if its in a Bunker. Your Relief Area is based on the Nearest Point of Complete Relief still in the Bunker, or you can take Relief with 1 Penalty Stroke using the Back on the Line procedure. See 16.1c for more complete information. But you’re not required to take relief, unless the Committee says you must. Separately, you might also have an Animal Hole, areas of GUR, or Temporary Water in a Bunker, and get ACC Relief under Rule 16.
3 Likes
These are not cart paths created naturally over time. They still have some crushed stone left and were man made, but they are mainly very hard dirt with no ruts. Could be one of our local rules too? We also have inside the course OB and we don’t allow the 2-stroke penalty OB drop in tournaments.
2 Likes
If they were once artificially surfaced, I agree. If its not really clear any more that they’re artificial, it would be a smart idea to have a Local Rule defining them as GUR or Obstruction, just so its clear. I was just in Pinehurst, and lots of the paths are natural sand, so there is no relief. Inside the course OB is legitimate, and you’re not required to use the Model Local Rule for OB or Lost balls.
3 Likes
I have been lobbying for a hole by hole rulebook for our course. It’s probably not needed on all holes, but we have holes where the pro, asst pro and Rules Chairman don’t agree on things.
There is a flower bed on the par 3 6th that you get a free drop from that everyone agrees, but then there are other similar areas where no one agrees if it’s a flower bed you get a drop from or not (no flowers, but nice plants in the same type of bed). There is one on the par 3 #10 hole and a free drop can mean saving par where taking a penalty can lead to a double bogey.
I think some of our rules should be looked at just for pace of play. The course is crowded now and the days of rounds in 3-3.5 hours are over. We’ve become happy with 4+ since most public courses are at least 5 hours.
3 Likes
well, if you insist; the most often broken rule in golf is the practice of the “Winter Rule”.
Besides relieve from casual water, the golfers in the British isles play the golf ball as it lies.
I’m one of the guilty one to use the “winter rule”. For one thing, the scores in the “off season” will not be used for index compilation. Secondly, if everyone in my group use the “winter rules” and we have a friendly bet riding on the outcome of the game; then, you’d bet, I’ll do the same.
Local knowledge is important to avoid using the extra “help” with the Winter Rules. For instance, hole #1 on one of the local track normally will be very wet on the right edge of the fairway since the 9th to the right is higher in elevation, draining the water over the left side of the #1 into a creek. we know to leave the tee shot to the left half of the fairway which normally will be drier than the left side. When we step on the short grass and have water seeping up to the seam of the golf shoes, we’ll call for the relieve.
Almost everyone I know around here will use the Winter Rules during the raining season.
2 Likes
My former course is a muni, It gets alot of play from people that not only don’t fix ballmarks, but use their irons to dig ditches in our fairways which most of the time are beautiful, especially giving yourself a preferred lie! The more play it gets, the harder it is to maintain decent playing conditions. I played competitive team golf events 18 years ago for my club in sanctioned Association matches against other clubs. Most of those matches are played against private courses…playing the ball down on my home course could increase a players index 5-6 shots compared to playing under the “pristine” conditions of the private course…or semi private course. The players in the matches were all 4 or better indexes. Today’s Golf was not meant to be played on a moonscape, that’s why we went to “preferred lies” or smoothing out a bunker, because players put 2 inch deep foot prints in them after they enter a bunker from the top side and destroy the faces… because the people who come to our course for $35 walk compared to having to shell out $150 for a semi-private track have the etiquette of a locust swarm! So when our team would go to the private course people would say we are sand bagging our indexes. I’ve played some of the most amazing courses in the world, playing conditions of the track make a huge difference. The more I think about it, that’s why today we rollem and rakem! It’s very hard to play shots and no fun when your ball lands in a 2 inch divot in the middle of a FW… the longer the season goes the worse the conditions get! I play for complete fun…My index has improved to a 6 now… I know, and have had my best rounds playing the ball down on our visits to courses that get minimal play compared to the 62000 rounds our course got hammered with this past year by alot of locusts!
1 Like
Any time we deal with the general public; there will be issues of those who seem never care for anyone else but themselves.
Just look at the drivers on the public roadways, say no more.
The true issue is not the difference between a privileged golfer and a common folk. The issue lies in the education for a golfer when they first started the game.
I started the game with a bunch of senior citizens and they showed me the etiquette on the golf course. How to repair a divot/ball mark and how to rake a bunker with the proper way to exit it afterward. Nothing special, if someone is mindful of taking care of the golf course for the golfers following.
I had witness some low index golfers not doing their share of taking care of the golf course, so don’t just point the fingers on the muni golfers. Private golf courses don’t get a lot of play which is another reason why the golf courses are in better shape.
Personal opinion of mine is not to play all the golf course at its best condition. Playing those manicured golf grounds is a treat, not a daily feat as life is not always smooth as still water.
They had since changed this at a top rated local golf course because many were complaining of the course set up. The so call “waste land” which are like giant sand bunkers were left in the natural condition, with foot prints often an inch or more deep scattered all over the waste land. They changed the local rule to rake and smooth several years ago instead of no raking. It was also to speed up the pace by allowing the golfers to advance the golf ball instead the only option was pitching out sideways/backward.
Still no riding carts allowed on this golf course with rolling fairways and elevation changes. Which means not many senior would venture to play this highly rated golf course. Plus for a local public daily fee golf course, near $300 per round for golf is not every golfer’s palate. Most will golf there once or twice at the most.
Comparing to other rated golf course, this $300 green fee could be a bargain. Just not for the average local golfers.
Most of my friends are daily fee golfers. Some of them had been members of local private golf clubs years ago. They forgo the monthly due + food and beverage ; worse was the special assessment for golf course and club house/facility improvements. All of a sudden the need to expand the lunge to include men only, women only and a mixed section; spot, sauna, exercise room… most of them a golfer never set foot in.
One of my friend quit the membership of a well known private golf and country club when they assessed 38 thousands to members for capital improvement. He abandoned his membership after receiving the notice. Did not even bother to try to sell the membership since there was a waiting list. $600+ monthly dues was not making sense to him plus the special assessment. He now plays golf at local daily fee golf courses and travel to play many other rated golf courses both in and out of the State.
I won’t knock on those who were ignorant to maintain the public golf course, but encouraging the education of all new golfers for the proper way to keep our golf courses in a better condition. Especially for the young ones.
As you volunteer in the First Tee Program. The kids should be exposed to the etiquette on the golf course. a day lesson including the proper manner on the golf course and the maintenance of the golf course.
I believe in Sweden, a new golfer has to attend the class of etiquette before they are allow onto the play ground.
1 Like
There is a written test and a playing test. Great way to discourage new players.
2 Likes
I don’t believe it’ll discourage potential new golfers.
Some parts of the world will request evidence of ability to advance the golf ball before they’ll let you pay the green fee.
Traditionally, the golf etiquette was learned through the family elders, from the experienced golfers a new golfer golf with… In these days the elders will hesitate in giving advice to the new golfers. I personally witness at a local private golf group outing where a junior( 16 back then?) snapped back at some golfers trying to give him some pointers regarding golf etiquette and proper manner on the golf course.
I had been long retracted to my shell with the golden rules of, if not being asked multiple times, don’t help. That including giving golf advice or repairing golf clubs. Sometimes doing a friend a favor, could have adverse effect. They can go to the local repair shops for re-grip and repair. Maybe they’ll feel better paying $45 for shaft extraction and $2 per re-grip labor cost.
Making the new golfers learn the proper way to act on the golf course is to the benefit of all the golfers. I believe it’ll extend the newbie’s interest to become a golf enthusiast rather than a fad chaser.
Sweden has limited land for golf course, like many other countries it’ll have to make sure all of those stepping onto the golfer courses know the proper way to use the facility. Japan and Singapore are two other places I know of practicing to let the “golfers” onto the golf course.
Back in the days when we still carry a paper i.d. for GHIN index ( internet is not prevalent in the 70s). while traveling I was invited to golf at one of the private golf course by a member friend. Before allowed to pay the green fees and the rental golf clubs, the pro asked to see my handicap index. Of course I did not have it with me, so I was politely asked to go to the driving range with him to hit a few 7 irons. After demonstrated that I could advance the golf ball, then I was allowed to pay for the guest round.
It’s like in Japan and Singapore and Taiwan, getting a driver’s license is tougher than getting into the narrow doorway of higher education. But most the drivers on the roadways are better drivers than in the North America. The licensing department here had been laxing about giving out permission to drive.
No, I don’t believe it’ll discourage potential golfers if there is a required classroom and field test before they were let loose on the golf course. It’ll discourage those who might disrupt the others on the golf courses.
Recent violence on the golf course probably were caused by these undesirable characters.
1 Like
There is a difference between knowing and doing the right thing. We all have drivers licenses yet all break various laws. And it would have certainly stopped quite a few people I know from starting golfer. They had the idea is was stuck and stuffy and having to take a written exam and a playing test would certainly have been a barrier. In fact, pretty certain I would not have started playing if those rules were in place here in the UK.
1 Like
Let me explain this way.
When my kids were very young going through the grade schools ( public schools), there was no excel program for advanced education until the 7th grade. My kids had to be supplemented by extra curriculum with my wife and myself after school. We got the information where to get the additional material from one of the teachers whom told my wife that she had to go buy the additional material from this book store where supplying teachers K-12 for extra learning materials just for my kid. Of course, we took her out for a nice dinner after my kid moved on to higher grade.
The round about way to say, we’ll not handle the things and restrictions/rules the way we should; whether knowingly or not. So everyone has to go through the drill to make sure the ones needing the education will not be left behind. If they went with my kid’s learning progression, most the kids in the class will not be able to stay with the extra learning.
A mandatory etiquette learning class is not that difficult ( I believe with the basic rules of golf is about a few pages long ). This is to ensure those who needs the information will receive it before they set foot on the golf course.
Where if someone knowingly break the rule of the etiquette and exhibits annoying behavior on the golf course, it is beyond the help from education.
You talked about driving on the roadways; it is kind of parallel to behaviors on the golf course. If, you use the example of single lane on country roadways ( I’m not going into driving on the left hand-side or the right 
). some drivers have perfect eyesight good reflexes with eye-hand coordination driving a nice motor vehicle with every part functioning properly, some driver have deteriorating eyesight, or was driving an aged motor vehicle with bold tread on the tires and the break needs work. Can all of them drive with the same manner? But if you’re stuck on the roadways with one vehicle slowing down the entire traffic. Or going down the freeways can a Mini Cooper go alongside with an Auston Martin at high speed?
Not everyone is equal in that sense.
In the country like Sweden and Japan, Korea… golfers are more inclined to exhibit curtesy and etiquette than here. I once golf with some Korean ladies, and I was amazed by their manner on the golf course. They followed every little etiquette in the book. Even on the green, the one extracting the pin from the cup will roll up the flag and lay it on the fringe. we normally just drop it somewhere on the green not blocking everyone’s putting line. They were speedy getting to their golf ball and execute the shot promptly, always whisper between themselves and give a group praise when I hit a nice golf shot.
I would golf with them again without hesitation.
If anyone will forsake this game just because they wouldn’t go through a short introduction to the proper way of conducting oneself on the golf course. then those might be the same who will hit into the group ahead and not replacing divot.
we had had many incidents on the golf courses here in recent years. Golfers go into argument of slow play or intrusive loud music playing with speaker, knifing or clubbing injury resulting from these were on the News. Of course the alcohol consumption is probably flaming the incident.
I’m for the mandatory class ( short class), but I don’t see this happening anytime soon here. we do have more golf courses, and more golfers.
1 Like
So today I think I’m reading one of the stupidest, dumbest, things I’ve ever read I couldn’t link it for some reason so you all could see it. In a nutshell, here it goes. What’s the rule if a small rattlesnake has curled up in hole on a green? My rule, run! He wanted to know if you should putt out and how to record the score! Are you kidding me. Are these people dopes! 3,times in my life on a course there were just move on. One was in Florida, I hit a ball near a water hazard and I was walking over and thank God a playing partner says just drop here are you stupid? I didn’t see it, it looked like a mud pile. 7 ft gator! So yea drop no penalty. Then once we were playing a course in upstate NY and posted in the clubhouse is 15th hole closed, just take a par. Huh? Yeah, mama bear had 2 cubs and decided to suckle them within 500 ft of the hole. Okey Doke don’t tell me twice! Then on a course in PA. a large overhanging branch snapped off a pine tree and was about 4 ft off the ground by the side of the green. Attached to it was the biggest Yellowjacket nest I ever saw. Yea…. Just write 3 and move on. Anyone encounter stuff like that. Putt out with a young rattlesnake in the hole… ah NO Thanks!
2 Likes
If not in a tournament play, I’m all for the forsaken of the lost of stroke and distance rule.
Assessing a two stroke penalty instead of one plus the distance will definitely speed up the play in a jammed packed public daily fee golf course.
we used to walk back to the original spot for the lost of distance penalty, maybe 30 years ago; and the groups behind would understood with patience. Not, in today’s environment! We had made agreement of “bending” the rules like both the stroke and distance penalty within our weekly gathering to not block the golf course.
In a sanctioned tournament will be following the rules, of course.
In many lower-level competitions, Model Local Rule E-5 is used. To me this makes sense, it avoids the potential for confusion in places where E-5 is used for everyday play.
2 Likes
One of the retiree club I occasionally golf with composed of mostly seniors picking up the sports after retirement.
I never fuss with their interpretation of the rules. Their weekly optional buy-in is additional $15 for all the long drive, KP, gross and net. No trophy except for the annual meet.
If those guys want to have a gimme for inside the leather, I’ll close one eye and let it be. They are out to have fun and to see their friends and to do exercise in the nature surrounding.
It make sense for them to enjoy their time on the golf course as they had earned the right.
I would avoid their weekly meet if I don’t feel like join a 5 hour round plus the 19th afterward.
Rules are made for those time when something is at stake. For these seniors when no one really care if their index is 25 or 17. They are not going to attend any regional or National outings. A little relaxed with the rules of the game will make them a lot more happier.
I used to help them spot their errant golf shots, not so much after I had the cataract surgery a few years back.
1 Like