In your head, you are dead
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Interesting. I guess the fence could have been in his swing - was hard to know with the wind blowing in the mic picking up the sound. Lowrys ball was plugged in the sand so the drop was big help
This is from https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga-championship-2021-shane-lowry-par-from-the-beach
Because his ball was against that rickety wooden fence, Lowry got relief from an immovable obstruction, but not the kind of free relief players have been getting at the 18th hole this week.
The fence is clearly artificial, therefore is an obstruction, and clearly immovable, and his ball was resting against it. Easy call.
Interesting enough, I looked at a couple of other sources, and neither mentioned him taking a drop, only that he had a fence in his line of play that he decided he could carry. And now I’m listening to his presser, he mentions a little fence, an immovable obstruction, free relief.
My question, and I wasn’t sure based on your earlier post, was the sprinkler control box interfering with your stance or swing, or was it in your line of play?
It was swing (was behind on line to hole) but there was a tree ahead of me so probably couldn’t have used that line anyway
How does rule work with relief for swing - has to be impacting on your intended line? Room for manipulation to get relief?
This is where you should read the rule for yourself. Its Rule 16.2, and interpretation 16.1a(3)/2. The short version, you can’t use an unreasonable stroke to get relief. And this is where the Rules rely on your integrity.
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I tend to agree. I have no idea how far a putt is in terms of distance and don’t care either. As documented elsewhere here I now use the look at the hole method, have halved my 3 putts and dropped average putts by 2 to 32 a round. Its feel for me with putting, 6ft, 7ft nope, just about yea hard…
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@davep043 Have you seen the “outrage “ over the drop today?
https://twitter.com/bondmotu/status/1403823770033401856?s=21
To me, it doesn’t look like he moves his wrist until after the ball drops…
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I agree, I don’t see an issue. Its not a great look, though, if the player watches this video he might choose to change that to avoid any appearance of impropriety.
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Jeez, I didn’t even know we switched from the ‘arm extended straight out from shoulder, palm down, release ball’, method.
It did look a tad like he was throwing the ball at the ground, though. Or a World Series of Dice competitor… Shrug.
The things Golf Twitter gets worked up about…
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Dave, I need your input on a rules question, if you don’t mind… Chasing Scratch just put out a new episode, and Mike hit a wait on the 9th tee, skipped to the 11th hole, played 11-17, then 10, then 9 then 18… is that legal?
For a podcast, anything is legit. However, Rule 5.1 defines a “round”
A “round ” is 18 or fewer holes played in the order set by the Committee.
So if you’re in a competition, you can’t skip around.
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Dave if you can stand another rules question, I have one concerning relief from a cart path. My opponent wanted to take relief from the cart path and we all knew it was the nearest point no closer to the hole. We all agreed the nearest point no closer to the hole was actually directly behind him, but that put him almost in some bushes where his swing would be impeded.
My partner and I felt that was his only spot as we didn’t think the rules provided for a full swing, but just relief from standing on the path. He felt he could move left or right as far as he wanted. He wound up moving to his left to the rough and was actually a bit closer to the hole in our estimation. He basically played it like he was in a hazard and brought the ball back on the line it entered. He maybe could have gone to his left and behind the path to ensure he was not closer to the hole but in that case just off the path was OB and again it was not the nearest point no closer to the hole. Thanks!
Your opponent was wrong and cheated.
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You’re right, he has to go to the closest point that offers complete relief for his stance and swing, but that means relief from the cart path. Interpretation 16.1/1 specifically talks about this, relief may result in better or worse conditions. Your 1 clublength relief area might allow you to drop in the fairway sometimes. On the other hand, your nearest relief could require you to drop in a bush. That’s life, there’s no guarantee of a full swing. He could play it off the path instead.
Refer him to Rule 16.1, and the definition of Nearest Point of Complete Relief.
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Thanks Dave!
Yeah I was 99.9% certain we were right, but didn’t want to be a rules Nazi. If it was me I would have played it off the path because it was mostly dirt and I want to follow the rules.
I was a bit pissed at him because he and my partner had a rules argument on the previous hole and I agreed he was correct in that case and I at least followed the rules. I had hit a tee shot in the fairway and all 4 of us saw it, but it was up over a hill so we didn’t see where it stopped. We couldn’t find my ball anywhere after hiking up the hill. My partner thought I should get a free drop since we all agreed I’d hit the fairway, but my opponent pointed out we didn’t see where it finished. I think the likeliest scenario was that it drifted into the left rough and someone from the adjacent fairway picked it up, but regardless of bad luck I had to hike back and reload.
There was karma as I finished birdie-par-birdie to tie him.
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While we are on topic of relief from an immovable obstruction like a cart path, I was wondering what the rules are in terms of edge cases from the dropping of the ball. It doesn’t seem too clear to me.
Particularly:
- Situation 1 - I find the nearest point of relief and then i get one club length from which to drop it. Can I drop it closer than the initial point of relief (e.g. closest point is off the cart path + my stance – can i then drop it closer to the cart path to play it standing on the cart path)?
- Situation 2 - I mark nearest point of relief and then mark 1 club length away - If I drop and it rolls outside the 1 club length + nearest point of relief but no closer to the hole, should i play it from there or re-drop?
- Situation 3 - If I mark two points with tees and I drop the ball and it settles touching the tee, is the tee a moveable obstruction?
- Situation 4 - If I drop the ball and it goes back on the cart path twice, where do i place the ball? anywhere within the 1 club radius or where the ball landed on the last drop?
Feel free to ignore but all these situations came up over the last couple months while playing and I’m not 100% certain we got it right.
Thanks!
- If you choose to take relief, you MUST take complete relief. 16.1b, see 3rd bullet in definition of Relief Area
- The ball must land in the Relief area, and come to rest in the Relief Area. 14.3c
- There’s no requirement to use tees to mark the area, but you may. If the ball comes to rest against a tee, you may remove the tee. If the ball moves, you must replace it where it originally came to rest. Interpretation 14.3c(1)/1
- If you’ve dropped the ball twice in the proper way, and it has rolled outside of the Relief Area each time, you must place the ball where the second drop landed. 14.3c(2)
These are all pretty clear, at least to me, in the specific rules I’ve cited. You should probably read these rules for yourself, you might find some additional details which will help in the future.
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Thanks for the reply.
It totally makes sense and you are right that I should re-read the rules again; there is a lot to digest and I don’t think the player’s edition has enough nuance that the full rules do.
I think the one area that comes up the most and is often abused is around relief from moveable and unmoveable obstructions so thank you for taking the time to respond.
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I’m happy to help, this keeps me on my toes. I’ll be doing my very first gig as a rules official in a couple of weeks for a Middle Atlantic PGA competition, answering questions here is good practice for me.
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I think the keys are take full relief from the closest point of full relief… it can get a little wonky, though! If your ball is a little right of the middle of a cart path running parallel to the hole, full relief to the right would include your feet, and full relief to the left would be just the ball…
It also doesn’t mean you get a GOOD drop! You can always play it as it lies.
I think that’s the biggest issue with relief… it needs to be full but that doesn’t mean you get to pick the best spot near the obstruction.
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