Hahahaha, I DO volunteer as a Rules Official for VSGA and MAPGA events, but my pay is usually a box lunch and a coke. Still, its fun to be involved.
Yes, I have that book. Plus many other books telling the stories of that.
Phil Mickelson will fit right in with the group if, he gives proper strokes to equalize the field. He loves the controlled craziness from making bets.
Yeah, I read about the vaseline on the face of persimmon woods to keep the tee shot in the fairway with more distance. I’ve tried that on a metal wood and could not tell the difference. I would not put vaseline on my persimmon driver, they’ve been with me for sometime.
Funny thing about this local group who love to bet on anything. They are not good golfers. If they don’t make bets on the golf courses, they’ll visit the local casino.
When they built up their bank rolls, they’ll take a golf trip to Las Vegas and dump all of their bank rolls there.
In the 90s sevral of them had the private jet sent from the casino to pick them up locally. Of course, they’ll have to deposit the required amount in the casino first and play the mnimum hands on the clock.
They talked about the free meals and free golf, but that just not measuring up to the postential financial disaster they could face.
A few of them lost their thriving business and moved out of town. At least one that I know had committed suicide ( not sure if related to his failing business resulting from his multiple visits to the sin city ).
That would be my first inclination. However, the ruling has to be backed up by written down text. common sense of holding up the integrity and being fair to the field was the initial principle to establish the rules of golf.
Our group is becoming like that. I am far from a diehard gambler so I stick to the friendly wager(s) and golf as close to the rules as possible. We used to have 2 groups, but now we have the golf group and the gambling group…and yes there is almost always a wager between the groups lol.
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The advice on the footprint in the sand one was not from me. That came from a Rules Official that had to call the USGA. USGA said exactly as I posted…that was a copy and paste. As I said there may now be an addendum to 15.3.
I put posted a Link from the USGA regarding abnormal conditions on the green right from the USGA. You “MAY” take relief from the abnormal condition on the green. If the green is chewed up by leaf spot you don’t have to putt across a moonscape. Just complete relief no nearer the hole.
Again a white stake you can move the white stake going perpendicular, not parallel and obviously not like 6 inches away… but if you are 2 ft away and going sideways it is allowed. I didn’t make this stuff up.
Ball in water in the sand… I was told you must find a spot in the sand (if it exists) and drop it in the sand regardless if it is closer to the hole or not, Most bunkers drain to the middle, so you will probably end up placing on hard sand somewhere around an edge. It must be in the sand though.
Did this Rules Official get a written response? Lacking that, and not knowing exactly how the question was posed, I’m afraid this seems like a version of the old “Telephone” game. The Rules of Golf REQUIRE the lie to be recreated, 15.3 specifically refers you to 14.3 for replacing the ball, and this is the wording used in 14.3d(1):
“In replacing the ball on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated), the player must re-create the original lie as much as possible”
You’re absolutely right. Now Look up the Definition of Abnormal Course Conditions, there are 4 of them: Temporary Water, Animal Holes, Immoveable Obstructions, and GUR. Look at the Definition of GUR, it has to be defined by the Committee. A chewed up bit on the Green is NOT an Abnormal Course Condition unless the Committee has defined it as GUR.
Please find this in the Rules of Golf. First you may want to read Rule 8.1a, which says you are NOT allowed to " Move, bend or break any…boundary object".
For Temporary Water in the Bunker, your Relief Area (for free relief) must be in the sand, and must NOT be Closer to the Hole than the Original Location. Read Rule 16.1c, and the drawing that goes with it. As an alternate, you can take Back on the Line Relief outside the Bunker, for one penalty stroke.
And I’m not making any of this stuff up, the reason I provide Rule numbers and Definitions is to help anyone to read the rule for himself. I don’t recommend trusting me or anyone else completely, every single Rules Official will make mistakes, do your own research, trust but verify!
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Friendly wager is fun and promote competition and provide incentives. Any bets that will make any of the party members feel unease is going the oposite direction. Only the addicted gamblers and the desperate will go beyond their means.
I like to have a $2 nassau or a dollar skin. I don’t particularly like all the other bests and there are literally dozens of common betting games going. One would need an APP or a separate scoring card to keep track of all the junk bets.Yes, we had the separation of groups bwteen those who like to bet and those who really like to bet on their golf games. Like I said, none of them really knows what they’re doing on the golf course.
I just look at them and think that they have to work so hard to try to make their green fees back.
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Yes written email from the USGA about the foot print,
I misinterpreted damage on the green from disease, That would 100% be a local rule from the super or the Greens Committee, I’m sure they wouldn’t want any further stress on a green
Moving of a white stake is permissible under a some very specific conditions
Can you move a White Stake…Maybe Know the rules
Well either the question was worded differently, or you just got someone’s mistake, the Rule is clear.
The link for the Temporary Water in the Bunker is accurate, but you need to look at the Definition of Nearest Point of Complete Relief, which specifically says it is not nearer the hole than the original location. That link is outdated, though, it references the 2019 Rules, we’ve been playing under the 2023 Rules for 10 months now. This Rule didn’t change, the same answer is in the current FAQ.
OK, you can move a white stake if it doesn’t help you in any way. Why anyone would do that, I don’t know. And again, the post you linked is from 2018, we’ve had two new versions of the Rules since that time.
Just to clarify, I always recommend reading the actual Rule, either online here or on the phone app. The FAQs are, by design, not complete, and references to GolfWRX or any other source commonly are just wrong. The Rules are easily searchable, you can get to the right rule pretty easily. Once you’re there, there are easy links taking you to any referenced rule, or to definitions. When you read 15.3 about a ball interfering with another player’s stroke, it says you have to replace it, and provides a link directly to 14.3 which talks about replacing a ball. In 16.1, "nearest point of complete relief is in italics, and clicking on it takes you directly to the Definition.
So as I’m thinking about a bunker that is just completely filled with water, no possible area within the bunker to take a drop, it’s basically almost treated as a water filled penalty area and you can drop behind the bunker and accrue a one stroke penalty… That definitely makes sense.
The removal of a white stake, I don’t know why you would do that, but I do understand that if the ball is in bounds and you are playing perpendicular or better yet backwards, for instance a tree and a boundary marker are in the way and you gotta play out sideways, that boundary marker is impeding a rescue shot from behind a tree, tree is more in play than the boundary marker as long as the ball isn’t on top of the boundary… I’m actually picturing the scenario.
Seasons over basically, so fun to get info and discuss this, rather than our inability at 65 years old to only be able to hit a Driver 300 yards if you tee it up on asphalt! 
Yeah, a bunker completely filled with water is an issue. In general, the best solution is for the Committee to use Model Local Rule C-4, which defines the Bunker as Ground Under Repair, AND as part of the General Area, so that free relief outside the Bunker (hence outside the GUR) is available.
The white stake thing, I’m not sure what you’re picturing here. If the stake interferes with the shot you’re planning to play, even if that’s a sideways escape, its part of the Conditions Affecting the Stroke, and so may not be moved.
The “two balls in the bunker” thing I’m still at odds with the response you got. I know you’re asked by the USGA not to share the text of those publicly (in an online forum like this one), but would you consider sending it to me privately, both the question and answer? If I’ve missed something, I’d really like to learn what it is.
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Thanks, I was not aware of this resolution.
And following on my statement that ALL Rules Officials make mistakes, I’m here to fix one I made earlier. The appropriate MLR is F-16. MLR C-3 can be used to define a practice Bunker as GUR and as part of the General Area. In both Local Rules, the impact is to allow Free relief outside the Bunker. If the Bunker retains its status as a bunker, the only way to get relief outside of it is with a Penalty stroke.
Thanks for clarifying the issue.
“ALL Rules Officials make mistakes” , as all human will, at one time or the other.
Gratefully, many of the realized mistakes are not life altering.
The rules of this game evolved through the decades and centuries of trial and error, through the test of fire from fierce competion.
However, I wonder if refining the details had also burden the game?
The way one local group of guys, to play it as it lies no mater what probably is not fair in all situation and would slow down the pace of play in many incidents. But I understand why they did it, even if there is only a $20 Nassau ridding on it ( and it’ll probably go to the beer fund at the 19th + more because the price had gone up 35% this year ).
Refining the details, trying to develop rules to address (nearly) every possible situation, certainly has made the rules a lot more cumbersome than the 1744 version, 14 rules written on a single piece of paper. But those 1744 Rules applied only to match play on a single golf course by a few dozen club members. The current Rules apply to hundreds of thousands of courses and millions of players all over the world. Prior to 2019, the Rules took 160+ pages of really small print, plus a huge book of Decisions. The 2019 revision definitely streamlined things, but its still a big book of stuff. I believe the basics of the Rules are pretty straightforward, the details generally follow a few simple principles, but the true details still require lots of study.
I’m particularly interested in the “decisions on the rules of golf” and the “exceptions of the rules of golf”; which cameout of real senarios mostly furing a tournament situation.
Have not finished the reading just yet and there are a lot to consider because each case has slightly different environment and conditions.
My buddies joked that it’ll require a PHD kind of extensive study to even get a grasp of how to interpret each different situation.
This is why I believed a 3-5 days of classroom study with all the past decisions on the golf rules will benefit those who wants to excel in this field and becaome a per diem employee for the USGA. Instead of senior club members who are knowledgeable but not all inclusive.
A degreed and licensed referee, so to speak.
The USGA offers 3-day workshops on the Rules, and they’re pretty intensive. I’ve done that 3 years running, and taken the 100-question exam each year, scoring in the Expert range (90 or better) each time. And I still have lots to learn. Based on numbers alone, I’m qualified to referee at USGA national events, but it takes experience as well, and I may never get enough after a relatively late start.
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Back to the original post in this thread. I took the original question and sent it to the USGA at [email protected]. I got a response in a couple hours. The USGA asks that I not publish their response via email or any other way, so I’ll paraphrase.
Player 2 (the guy who’s away) plays his ball as it lies, after Player 1 has marked and lifted his ball. (this is in 15.3).
Player 1 must Replace his ball, and MUST re-create his original lie as much as possible, per 14.2d(1). If he plays from the right place, but fails to recreate the lie, he gets the General Penalty.
This is how we had always done with the situation.
Although there might be squabbles for the re-created lie in the bunker. Most the time the witnesses will agree on the recreation by the player without issue. A few incidences when we know some advantage had been taken; and we also believed that what goes around always comes around. Intentional cheating in this game will be outcast by our group.
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Wow, I’ll pass that on to Orist
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