I am working on right now an exaggerated pause and starting everything by dropping my right elbow to the hip and just holding onto that angle as i start to unwind. I’m really trying to hold that angle. It is flattening everything out. Here’s what I will tell you when the sequence is working. My normal swing speed is 93 to 97. Ball speed approaches high 130s low 140s. When I go at 90% purposely holding that angle and width and a full release, well swing speed is 108 and ball speed is 155. When I get that sequence right. Not kidding. And a lot less effort. It’s interesting
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Sounds like you’re a lot more into the technical parts of the swing than I am, but I think that pause at the top is the key. It may feel like you’re just pausing, but without even thinking about it, your shifting your weight to the left, starting to turn the hips, and the arms are dropping. I’ve always done better when I’m “letting the swing happen” rather than trying to force it.
But if you’re getting than big of a jump in speed, something is definitely working.
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That speed increases is only when I’m getting the sequence correct. Right now it’s still all over the board. In my youth, my swing was because of athleticism. As I got older and making poor, on the go adjustments, I lost speed and distance. I’ve since gotten better, especially since last year, but I knew there was more. Video of myself showed me I was losing width and breaking down. It’s practice and repetition for me. I gotta get certain feelings. When it executes it is really cool. When it doesn’t. I’m hitting the ground. I do let the swing happen, it happens because of repetition. I’m waiting for that light bulb moment. It’s trusting the moves and ingraining the moves. I literally feel like I’m holding on to that width for dear life. I’ve never held that angle that long. It’s going to get more natural with reps.
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Bring the right arm/elbow to the front of the right hip ( camera angle will show likely to the side of the hip). It is easier to maintain the L shape lag between the shaft and the arm.
Do more exercise with your fingers and the wrist/forearm. By the old reliable way of squeezing a rubber ball while sitting in your comfort chair watching cable. Give it a few weeks to increase the strength of your fingers and wrist/forearm. You will have more acceleration through the golf ball.
Relax your grip and wrist/forearm before coming into the “hit”, this is how the better golfers have more angle showing during the lag. It’ll be impossible to hold on to that angle if one grips the golf club too tight.
Take some practice to gain confidence, but not difficult to do. Just remember not to “re-grip” while relaxing the last linkage to the golf club.
I’m sorry, I have to disagree. The issue is not with my grip or grip pressures at all. It’s learning to trust that holding on to that width I created going back will release instead of me breaking down that angle, I’m teaching my brain to do something it’s not used to doing from years of adjusting due to pain.
I was working on it last nite. The first move is a drop of the right elbow straight down to the hip with a pronation of the left wrist and it feels like my right hand is palm up holding a cocktail tray. Look at the 3:39 spot on that video above. The green dot for transition appears at top of the backswing and it’s a drop down, it’s a split sec before the green dot of the hip transitioning. Hold on to the width, you are kinda flattening the swing. As you unwind, and still hold that angle (this is where I’m saying I’m holding on for dear life) right knee is heading towards the ball, the hip is unwinding and the right shoulder is coming down to about a 52-55 degree angle and then just let it go. It’s like a whip. And I’m not trying to hit the ball, I’m unwinding with no effort. That is why I think it appears the right elbow is in front of the right hip … it’s not… when it is you are hitting pull snap hooks. I hit 2 dozen balls putting the right elbow in front of the R hip and missed the damn net. When it is done correctly, the club feels like it’s going out to the right, but it’s actually going right down the line— full extension is happening just after impact about left knee high. There is no doubt about it. Just so you know this is happening in less than a second. I hit 200 balls last nite and it’s getting better. When I did this correctly I was hitting a tight fade, SS avg of 105, BS of 148 and Distance was pumped out to 278-285. That is incredible for me now.
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You’ve probably already seen this, but check YouTube for the ‘pump drill’. Sounds like this is similar to what you’re working on.
Yes Thank you. That is part of it. I’m working on the sequence. It’s like trying to find that trigger to start the downswing. Every single great ball striker I’ve seen on YouTube…every one of them and it is like at blinding speed, the downswing starts with the elbow pulling down, the hip starts to unwind, then the push off the ground. boom, boom, boom… I had/have a tendency to start the move with my right shoulder… that’s the over the top move. Then I proceed to throw the club… I mean I can still hit it 240-250 doing that… I’m losing power though. I’m retraining myself NOT to be afraid of holding on to the angle I created in my backswing. IT’s MENTAL, For me, I want to be able to do this without thinking about it. I tried several different things. The great ball strikers are pulling that club down (maybe 3-4 inches), the shoulder aren’t moving at all. The angle is created at the top of that backswing. Look above in the vid Dew posted 3:39 mark… the club moves downward, the hips then start to unwind and the push off the ground goes…in that sequence.! I’m not trying to swing like them…I’m trying to sequence what I got to their sequence of events…if that makes sense.
As long as you could, point the butt end of the grip to the golf ball, there is your swing plane. Shorter person will have a flatter swing plane. Same as the shorter clubs will have a steeper swing plane, and the driver will have a flatter plane.
This game is whatever works for you, the idea is not to be mirror image of someone else. A few major winners disappeared from the competition after they tried to revamp their golf swing to near perfection. The move perfected showing them the door.
I would say, it is great that you have continue trying to find a way to better your golf game. Sometimes the answer is simple and right in front of your eyes.
A feel I’ve been taught, first by my instructor, then again watching Monte’s series of videos, is “to keep my shoulders closed as long as possible.” But move the arms/hands.
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Yes, yes, yes---- that is the feeling. It’s not what is happening… BUT you feel the shoulders are staying static. I know this is sounding stupid. The right elbow is moving downward, the hips begin to unwind, the Left shoulder and hip are moving upward. It has to be an ingrained muscle memory move for me, Coming over the top is a bad move, that’s what my brain is telling me…"YOU’RE NOT GOING TO HIT THIS BALL HOLDING ON… so I am ending up alot of times throwing the club at the ball. If you look at ball position of these great ball strikers…everything until the finish is behind the ball… the weight shift is actually upwards and to a solid posted left leg.
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The shoulders aren’t moving because it had reached the anchoring position.
You guys, the big part of your body move like the low gear in the transmission, the smaller parts are like the higher gear.
Your core and torso and thigh moved to the bracing position and anchor there so the smaller parts could sling through.
If you do it other ways by just moving your arms and hands, you’ll be flipping at the golf ball.
I don’t have time to go through this, just find out what works for you. Keep in mind, no matter what it may be taught, learn from what has been working for most if not all of the top players.
The moving arms and hands are the last move, after, the body is in position. How did the body get into position? It has to move from the set position at the top of the swing like a wind up spring.
My question is regarding feeling and triggers. The very first trigger on the downswing is 100% a downward pull of the right elbow. It just is. Your slo mo’s in the video above prove it. Im looking to find the sequence. I am trying to ingrain that. Im not trying to copy anyone’s swing, However, the downswing sequence and positions of the great ball strikers are the same. Impact positions are the same I am trying to stop the over the top shoulder move. I get into that position trying to compensate for not sequencing correctly. My tendency, as that split second transition occurs is pulling the right shoulder over first. That’s the over the top move I’m trying to correct. I played yesterday, and when I hit the ball correctly I was getting great results. When I’m not, I’m catching turf first. I’m getting there.
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Don’t miss the lower body movement.
Way before both golfers showed the starting of their upper body movement. Watch for the “bump” or the preparation for the weight shift to the left. This happened before the upper body move, including the supposed arm/elbow drop.
Hogan has already shift/ prepared for the transferring of weight to the left at the top of the swing, an early move which personally I could not imitate.
I shift weight to the front simultaneously with the start of the down swing. Hogan was already there when I left the starting line.
Both golfers first move of going after the golf ball were from the ground up.
If you’re having difficulty, perhaps you were missing the details.
I am well aware, I’m not interested in any of that. I’m looking for feeling. All of this stuff happens in a second, What I feel is not necessarily what happens. A good golf swing is in-grained. There’s a lot happening at the same time, but it’s not really, especially slo-motion. If I get out of position, bad things happen. JJ has been so helpful with the correct vids for me KUDOS man and TY. Best part about YouTube is I get instructions from great ball strikers. It’s finding the right one out of millions of videos. Now, to make things even more complicated you have to do all this staying in a decent increasingly faster tempo and not falling out of balance. I’m getting there, I’m not there yet. I’m not changing my swing from a standpoint of looking like anyone, I own my swing. Let me explain it in simpler terms. Have you ever hit that great long or mid iron shot or great drive that just blows out there 40-50 yds past where you expected. Well this past year I was doing that probably 10 times a round. You never knew when that would happen or worse why and how. Sprinkle in there some crappy shots too. Your on the tee and you partners say yea do that every time. Not that easy, but you know it’s there. I am on a quest this winter to find that. I DID IT, NO ONE ELSE! That was my swing, no one else’s. I know it’s not the backswing. I also know the Follow through happens on balance because you executed a good downswing. That’s my holy grail. I am just looking to replicate my perfect swing, I want to do it more on purpose and not by accident. The swing, to me, goes totally against what my brain tells my body it should be doing. Once I nail that correct sequence I’ll be golden.
Have fun going through all the available information to us as visual tool. You seemed to enjoy the visual aid more than finding out which tool best fit you personally.
We certainly did not have all of these gadgets even a few decades back.
I understand because my wife is a visual learner. So are many who I personally know.
The “feel” you’re searching for is long been discussed as the one most difficult point for an instructor to relate to the students. Harvey Penick rely on story telling, modifying a golfer’s existing form in the smallest way by not changing it much. Quite a few depending on the “drills” to band aids over the issue, especially with the new generation of teaching pros who rely on technology these days.
Not until the golfer has that “Ah-ha” moment will the golfer fully experience and understand the lessons and the tips and the drills trying to do.
If you are just looking for that moment and how to feel about a proper transition. I can only tell you what I personally feel and not the best solution for everyone. Certainly will have a lot of disagreements.
The use of body weight + the torsion of the core with the release of the smaller, most outer part of the connection ( arms and hands ) completes the golf swing.
So, How do I feel about when will the starting, trigger, point of transition?
Think is winding up a spring or a thick rubber band. Depending on our individual physical ability, we should know when we reached our limit on the winding. And, when do the winding , unwind? it really has more to do with the person’s built in rhythm and timing.
Nick Price has a very fast winding and release, probably the quickest on the Tour in his days ( probably still is ).
Where Sam Snead had that relaxed, lazy feel swing. But all of them start to come back down to the golf ball when they reached the limit of their winding. Only person I saw with a slight pause on the top of the golf swing was Nancy Lopez.
It worked for her and she is comfortable doing it. Can’t dispute the result.
The valuable lesson I learned from my first instructor as how he explained the winding and the unwinding of the golf swing. Think of the the club head is the end of a sling. One winds up the motion by starting with the clubhead, hands/arms, shoulders, upper torso, hip, thighs, then the feet which connects to the ground.
The unwinding, is the reverse sequence in the winding. By the first motion (trigger) of the lower body, unwinding the torsion built up during the back swing in the reversed order and finishing with weight forward and the release of the golf club head through the impact.
In short, again, the “trigger” you’re searching for should be from the ground up. some like to think it’s the knee, some like to think it’s the push of the feet against the ground.
Never starting off with the arms first, that’ll be a recipe for casting.
One very important tip which the same teach told my more than 4 decades ago, is to feel the club head lags behind the hands, playing catch up all the time until accelerating just before the impact.
I did not understand this until my 4th or the 5th year.
Always appreciated his teaching as the lessons with him trump all the other learning avenues I had went through later.
Mike, have a look at the latest AMG video on shallowing they dropped today.
Might be interesting for you.
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Re: shallowing the club at the top of the backswing…
I’ve attended two Monte Scheinblum clinics and subsequently purchased his"No Turn Cast" video … which has been a huge help to me!
Closely related to what Monte teaches - take a look at these two videos…
- from AMG
https://youtu.be/YfvVnWwhQFc
EDIT: just saw jayjay’s post just above … this is the same vid.
…and
- from Shauheen Nakhjavani who explains it all really well (imo)
https://www.instagram.com/p/CnVj8qeu_-8/
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@MJTortella Just curious about your progress with this. Are you still sticking with it? Have you unlocked the secret formula?
Just wondering because when I look back through my golf journal it’s funny how many times I’ve found my ‘silver bullet’ and then it quits working, or I stray from that path. Glad I started keeping a journal because I often go back and get reminders of what feels were working for me in the past.
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No silver bullet, I still hit poor shots. Except my misses are more consistent. The misses are either fat or toe. Both of those misses are the coming over the top move. The misses are fewer now. I have not tracked distance this winter it’s senseless, but on really good strikes I’m hitting it past players 20-30 years younger than me. I’m very happy with my long and mid iron strikes. The 7W, 3W and hybrids are pretty good and fairly on target. My putting, like everyone is always a struggle and winter is bumpy greens. I am continuing getting better at shallowing the club on the downswing. Once I can get that slot consistent, it’s really going to improve my striking. The other mistake I have is coming up and out of it, that’s mental. To put in perspective, I would say I was hitting about 8-10 really poor shots a round with no distance (Tee shots, iron shots. even my wedge game was affected or afflicted). The distance loss part has been eliminated by 90% or more. The flares or pulls are around 3-4 a round and not 8-10. I want to put context into this. If I am aiming at a green or a FW and I hit the ball into a bunker or leave it short 10 yds into the pond, that’s a miss and likely cost me a shot or 2. The miss isn’t much, but it is a huge miss. It’s the horseshoes and hand grenades close only counts thing. If that makes sense. A decent golfer might be happy to be that close, as you get better and better at ball striking, close doesn’t really quite count. It’s fun to reap benefits of work. Even with that, I make sure I analyze a bad shot as to what and why. I ended last year as an 8cap. I’m interested to see how this all translates, I’m expecting to see a 3 shot reduction in cap this year. I’m very encouraged. Putting in the work is important. I don’t have access to a trackman alot, but I’m hitting into a net. The feedback on the strike is immediate, but I don’t get feedback on direction or dispersion until I get to the range. Range time for me is limited this time of year. We are playing though…I usually walk, not in the winter. This year we bought a cart cover and a heater, so we are pretty toasty even when it’s 35*. The feedback on course has been very positive this winter. I’m sticking with it. Golf is a game of repetition, the more consistently repetitive you can get yourself, the better you can become. At least that are what I have found.
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This should go under how was your round, but yesterday was the first decent day we had in awhile 45 and chilly. I wanted a real life follow up to your question how’s the swing work going. I started the round by bogeying the first four holes nothing to speak of but something clicked in. After 4 I hit 12 outta 14 GIR made 2 birdies and 4 bogeys 1 was a 3putt. Went to range right after with a small bucket and it was there. I found what I was struggling with, I know the feeling was looking for, I found it and the ball for all intents was center of the club. This round wasn’t a one off. The swing wasn’t a one off. I had 4 mid irons finish within 18 ft, 3 finished within 7 ft and converted 2 of those. If the putts I had would have dropped, and I did putt really well except 1 hole. I would have carded a 65. I carded a 75. Hard work pays. Drives in this very cold weather were avg 220-245. You can 10% to that in warm weather. I was 50yds past my partner and I was 25 yds past the 2 young blokes that we ended up playing with.
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