For sure. I’m having trouble finding a good pro locally to go to tho. Which is off bc our town isn’t small. I could drive to a GOLFTEC or something similar but that’s at least 90min away. I want in person but I guess online lessons may be just as good?
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Yes I think online lessons can help (in person is always best). Check out my buddy Shauheen, he’s one of the top online instructors.
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My driving is by far the worst part of my game. My typical one is a 170 yard out to in slap, fading weakly to the right side of the fairway (or rough) Yet I am able to break 80 now and again (long game 25 h/c, short game 5 h/c) Tried a driver specific lesson where the pro said to tee it up high on my lead foot and then swing as if the ball was 6 inches behind. No good, I just chased the ball to where I knew it really was and popped it up in the air 100 yards. On the rare occasions I did make decent contact the ball went miles left as by the time the clubface reached it it was well shut. Not much better with a 3W or a 5W off the tee, though I can hit perfectly good fairway woods 200 yds with a slight fade off the deck. I guess I’d better try not teeing it up at all then, as I seem to have some strange psychological problem with a ball on a tee. But then I’ll duff one . . . .
Sounds like you know where you need to put in some work… from your description, it’s not a swing speed issue but a contact and confidence issue…
Have you tried a shorter driver? Or maybe a heavier driver? Something you feel more connected to as you swing?
It seems like you’ve tried some of the basic stuff, so maybe get weird with ideas?
Have you ever tried swinging as hard as you can? Done any speed training or rotational work? I’m not sure any of this will specifically help, but I feel like you need to get more comfortable with the “power” swing… basically get used to driving fast. Watch talledega nights and take some notes!
Seriously, though, it sounds like you need to figure out how to gain confidence or proficiency or both with a driver swing. Try different stuff, swing hard, step through the ball, hit from your knees… keep trying stuff until you find what works for you.
I just stumbled on something that made a massive difference ~ I was working on something else altogether, but noticed I had a seriously cupped lead (left) wrist at the top of my backswing. I bowed it a la DJ instead and it made an instant improvement in consistency and quality of strike. Not perfect, because I pulled nearly everything, but a step in the right direction I feel.
The amount the clubhead moves when you go from cupped to bowed at the top is huge, 3 or 4 feet with a driver, but its just another one of those things that no one would ever see. I could be getting all sorts of instruction about weight shift and how to start the downswing and none of it would matter at all if I was trying to swing with a cupped wrist . . . . ! I fear there is a lot of this kind of stuff in golf instruction. We are told to do this and that, but the teacher is assuming we are already doing something that we aren’t.
A case in point is dealt with in ‘Golf’s Greatest Secret’, a great book that deals with the fact that good players hit the ball with a different power source than bad players, and neither of them realise it, therefore good players can’t teach bad players.
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Glad you found something that worked! Keep grinding.
Maybe spend some time doing half swings with a good impact position? To get the feel of a correct swing? That always helps me.
Looking at old threads…
What are you doing on this hole these days? Do you know your scoring average on the hole?
Matchplay format, I am hitting driver all day ( I would be carrying 238 bunker and maybe getting into 260 bunker sometimes)
Stroke play I am pretty sure hitting hybrid short of the 225 bunker is best for me… though this really comes down to how penal the areas on the left and right are… if most of the time you can punch one out to the 100 yard marker, I am playing aggressively… if you can actually incur penalty strokes or be forced to hack out and have 200+ into the green for 3rd shot, I would be picking up strokes by playing safe based on my dispersion
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I’ve been hitting 3 wood unless straight into the wind. Unfortunately being lefty, I’ve been in the left bunker a few times since left misses are flares (funny though I wedged out to 160 last weekend and holed it for eagle).
If it’s into a strong wind or very wet, I’d probably hit driver but on most days 3 wood gives a chance at getting home or at least up near the green.
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also will mention I’ve noticed other guys going to 3 wood as well mainly because that tree was taken out and they’re realizing lost ball potential in the long grass
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I’m back down off driver on 2 of my par 5s… one will be a driver if I ever break 120mph CHS (possible, but unlikely… I’m much more cautious of speed training with my back) as it will allow me to carry a hill… right now it’s hybrid to the bottom, then hybrid back up…
The second par 5, driver hit right is just dead and I can’t play a draw… if I had the ability to hit a consistent draw, it would be driver all day.
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Interestingly, I’m now drawing my driver, and it’s still the wrong play on this hole…
I’m in an existential crisis on my strategy on my home course… I’ve been hitting a ton more hybrid off the tee, and it’s definitely reducing my BIG numbers… i have a couple holes where it’s leaving me long shots and I’m questioning the whole thing…
14, for instance, is a 240 carry over water, but there is a huge tree on the right side that forces you to either hit over it or aim left and bring OB into play… I’ve hit driver out of play a number of times on this hole… but yesterday, I had 180 uphill into the green… I’m going to stick with hybrid and see if I can more consistently put it to 150-160. I’ve messed up the hole from the middle of the fairway on the other side of the creek plenty, so I have no real issue with a strategy change…
5 on the other hand, I’ve played relatively well and hybrid leaves under 150 into the green… A bombed driver gives me a “better angle” and significantly less club, but brings a bunker into play… I think this is more of a neutral shift for me… it take the concessional BIG driver miss out of play, but lowers my chances of making par or birdie… I’ll probably bang driver occasionally just for the fun of it.
I also put one out of play on one of the par 5s I like to hit driver on… My feeling is I wasn’t fully committed to the LEFT target line, and so I aimed right and missed right… just so happens there is water 300 yards out… I’m chalking that one up to bad aim and going to keep hitting driver here… but it’s on my list… My main thought is it’s a tough green, even from 100-150 out, and I might as well try to knock it on from 200 yards, or get up and down from around the green… I hadn’t taken a penalty stroke here until my last 2 rounds… whoops.
I’ve also switched to hybrid on #1 and it’s just annoying me… I haven’t hit the fairway or the green with the switch… I have NEVER played #1 well and driver is over a bunker and leaves a good possibility of having a very large tree in my way… hybrid is the smart play, but I need to be more committed.
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I recall reading somewhere that Jack Nicklaus planned his shot strategy pet hole from the green back - not starting with a line off the tee.
Just food for thought…
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Just curious, how many penalty shots are in play with hitting driver on the holes where you’ve begun hitting hybrid?
I know what DECADE recommends as far as when to hit driver (65 yards between penalty hazards), BUT that also seems to be for very good golfers. I mean Scott is a +5 himself so, we may need to give ourselves some more space.
For example, I’m a 3 handicap and hit it a pretty good way. Average 293 (per ShotScope) but obviously that’s after roll. But I’ve been utilizing The Scoring Method’s strategy of getting the ball in play off the tee as the first priority. 1st gear in TSM is getting the ball inside 100 yards within regulation. Then focusing on getting the ball down in 3 from within 100 yards. This takes the big numbers off the card and builds confidence for putting the ball in play off every tee.
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Whatever the ev / dispersion analysis says, good golfers incur far fewer penalties than higher handicaps
If I start incurring multiple penalty strokes (index bounces between 6 and 8) I know I am not playing optimally. Like you, I am playing less aggressively now with penalty in play because i know my dispersion is just too large.
The proof is in the pudding. If you are taking multiple penalty strokes your dispersion is too damn big. Time to get some block practice going
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Precisely.
Double bogey avoidance is key.
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Our 13th is a nondescript 365yd dogleg right. After several draws ended up being in the heather, I reverted to 3-w to keep ball in play. I averaged nearly a stroke over par due to errant drives. Honestly, that is what drove me to learn(ing) power fade so that I can still game my driver for distance. I was keeping 3-w in play but giving up a couple clubs in approach.
Is this a great game, or what?!
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Yes. I am also trying to describe some of bayes theorem though. You don’t need a huge data sample to start to infer that you have a wide dispersion
Then you weigh frequency of penalty vs -0.3 stroke for laying back
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Love it 
Totally 100% agree (even as a higher handicapper)!
As far as I’m concerned, as an 8-9 HDCP, if I’m hitting driver into penalty situations less than 20% of the time it will probably be the correct play. Closer to 10% if its going to be a stroke + distance penalty. This is probably a higher penalty rate than you think.
Any stroke + distance penalty by definition costs 2 strokes, while a lateral hazard usually costs you about 1 stroke - (its actually a little more than 1 stroke since you often have to move a little farther back to find an acceptable drop area).
It’s somewhat ambiguous as to how much an extra yard is worth as it depends on your skill level, and how close to the green you are. The article in the OP implies that dropping back 30 yards costs amateurs on average 0.3 shots or 0.1 shots per 10 yards. However, on the PGA tour this number ranges from 0.025 to 0.065 depending on the yardage (per Mark Broadie’s Every Shot Counts). In that same book Broadie makes the comment that distance matters more for amateurs than it does pros which lines up with the data.
Simple expected value calculations will tell you that if 10 yards is worth 0.1 shots, in order for dropping back 30 yards to be the correct play, you need to reduce the amount of times you hit it OB by 15%, or the amount of times you hit it into a lateral hazard by 30%, or some appropriate combination of both. There may also be a small increase in fairway% but unless the fairway is significantly wider where you’re laying up it doesn’t make have a significant impact on the calculations.
If you’re a tour pro and 30 yards is the difference between being 70 yards and 100 yards away, you’re only gaining about 0.075 shots from distance. Now you only need to reduce OB% by 3.75% and lateral hazard% by 7.5% in order for laying back 30 yards to be the correct play. However, if 30 yards is the difference between 230 and 200, that distance is worth a lot more and you need to reduce penalty% by more for it to be mathematically correct.
In DECADE, this corresponds to comment the idea that there are diminishing returns to getting closer once you get a wedge in your hand. For those familiar with the driving flow chart it is specifically the box that says “it is unlikely you should drop back to 2i/hybrid unless the hole is short and you will be left with a wedge or less”.
That being said, I question how relevant this is for the majority of amateur golfers. I hit the green about 50% of the time from 100 yards. From 50 yards that number jumps to close to 80%. I’m not sure what my expected strokes to hole out are from either distance, but I’d imagine it would be quite a big difference given how rapidly my GIR% increases in this distance range. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if this difference in strokes to hole out is greater than what my difference would be going from 100 to 150 yards.
Take a look at the average GIR% on the PGA tour from various distances:
175-200: 53.77
150-175: 63.20
125-150: 69.48
100-125: 74.81
75-100: 78.11
The increase in GIR% gets smaller and smaller as they get closer and closer to the hole. Granted, they’re definitely sacrificing GIR% for proximity at the shorter distances, but I don’t think its a coincidence that the distances that show the greatest changes in expected strokes to hole out coincide with the distances that show the greatest changes in GIR%. Now compare that to my stats from this year (which are admittedly a small sample size, but I still think they get the general point across):
175-200: 22.2%
150-175: 46.4%
125-150: 40.0%
100-125: 50.0%
75-100: 52.4%
50-75: 70.0%
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Very thorough information here.
I think it comes down to what you said about penalty shots. 1 in 5 seems too frequent to me. Unless at zero penalties, I’d think that would be the first area to address. Why do they have penalty shots? What clubs are the frequent offenders.
Generally speaking, the offender will be the driver. 65 yards with the driver means you are somewhat decently straight. Even Bryson sends it sideways a decent amount of times and I imagine amateurs moreso. I think this is from @LouStagner on Twitter. I agree with the idea that we should all learn to hit it far and a 65 yards wide dispersion is a good benchmark. But if OUR dispersion isn’t 65 yards, we also need to be realistic about that and play more conservatively until we can keep the ball in play with more club.
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