I just posted what I was taught to believe about scoring. It’s all about short game. Forget everything else, how many times do you find you are less than pin high with your approaches let alone past. I struggle more with back pins than anything because there is no room for error. Look I saw a vid interview with Fawcett where he said he got into a heated debate with Faxon who is/was the best flat stick on the planet about why he missed putts. Scott said cause u’re not aggressive enough. Heated argument, but data showed like over 95% of Faxs missed putts were short. I agree completely. First I agree send it when it makes sense, for me personally, I need FedEx to send it now, but I do when I feel it’s to my advantage. Getting a full lofted club in my hands is where I’m going to score because I will send it. I play to yardages letting the pin get in the way. I’d rather be 20ft past a front pin than 20ft short. Most higher handicap players aren’t aggressive enough with short game, putting or pitching, Are your 3 ftrs hitting the back of the cup or trickling in the front…When someone argues with me I’m not practicing “gimmes”, I laugh, when I see them barely roll it in instead of hitting the stick or back of the cup squarely. That’s where I score or lose score…follow me
I’m sorry to say this, but this is just wrong. And exactly why I posted this article in the first place. What you were taught and what has been figured out are two different things. We are beating this horse to death on this post 
He hit a bad one but that wasn’t why he made an 8. He dumped an 80 yd wedge in the water and then an even shorter one (off a perfectly flat lie) about 40 ft past the hole. It was a very timely sequence showing that their wedge games are not as perfect as you think,
I have been there and I do know what I am talking about and, most importantly, the guys who are there right now and competing really know what they are doing and turns out they are doing something different than you are suggesting they do. I looked at the top 10 guys and all their tee shots on 13 and 23 out of 30 of them hit drivers. Seems odd that the guys who are playing the best at the Masters would be employing such a poor strategy. Or, maybe…
Look in my mind people are attacking me. What the data shows is that people are not as aggressive with approaches and putts, Nostalgia says be aggressive with putts and pitches. Data shows that. Someone says to me I’m not practicing 3 ftrs because that’s not where scoring is, I’m going to vehemently disagree when they can only make 70% of them because they aren’t banging them into the back of the cup when they can and maybe increase their make rate to 90%. Like a missed 3ft doesn’t count? And people believe that…Do you disagree? I’ve asked several people who work Scotts model and all that’s talked about is tee shots, like that’s the be all end all. Well if you’re 30 ft short with your approaches and can’t jar 3ftrs because your not taking that aggressive approach to the rest of the game…I know I have played with enough players that are just mid to higher handicap players and 90% of their misses are short, short wedge, short mid iron, short putts. Do you disagree…?
Well you keep saying things like this that are incorrect. Hitting these putts harder will not increase the make rate for most golfers because they are making the hole smaller.
There are tons of things in golf that are open to interpretation, but others are not. So when you say scoring is all about the short game I have to step in and say something because it’s just not true.
This is also incorrect. Scott’s system does not only talk about tee shots. I’m not trying to attack you, but when you say something like that I am going to correct you.
Given that he spends a lot of time arguing that players need to learn to leave a lot more putts short, I suspect that this, too, is another thing about his system and philosophy that you have completely wrong.
I give up! I did not say Scotts model, I said people here who are employing Scotts model seem to be only talking tee balls. AND I said hit the back of the cup, I did not say hitting it harder, like I’m suggesting hit a 3ft putt 10 ft past. Big difference trickling a 3ft in than hitting aggressively enough that it would go 18-24 inches past the cup. So you also disagree that most mid to high hdcp players don’t leave approaches short?
I think I’m done - we keep going in the same circle. You say something, I disagree with it and then you tell me I’m not understanding you. Let’s just leave it.
You are disagreeing and that’s fine, but you fail to answer my question. Look, you don’t want to take my word on short putts, read this https://golf.com/instruction/putting/low-handicaps-reveal-their-secret-to-making-short-putts/ PGA pros make over 99% of 3ft putts, mid to high handicap players make 66%. That’s data, that’s a fact. A gentleman on here told me word for word he’s not practicing 3ft gimmes like that’s not a stroke. What are we promoting here? I’m telling you it’s a fact that 90% of mid to high hdcp players leave approaches short and short by alot, that’s data, that’s a fact and you think that’s something to disagree with? I’m just trying to see what we are promoting here? Just trying to be real… here’s your own article: https://practical-golf.com/youre-not-going-to-hit-it-long/#:~:text=He%20said%20that%2094%%20of,shots%20short%20of%20the%20green.&text=3)%20We%20don’t%20have,a%20GPS%20or%20Rangefinder!) Now I’m done!
@jon @CoryO @papageorgio thanks for the replies. Interestingly, Frank Nobilo on the cbs broadcast today was saying the same thing about #3… basically, “Old school says to lay up to a full swing yardage, new school says (backed by data) to get as close to the green as possible.”
I think it was while Connors and Zalatorios were putting.
If you’re referring to me, I said I’m not going to practice tap ins. 3 footers are definitely not tap ins.
Also if you’re making 66% of putts from any distance - be it six inches or six feet - you should practice that distance. However, its a waste of time to be practicing putts you’ll make 99% of the time (which for almost everyone 1-foot tap ins are).
Interesting that no one lays up at 13 or 15 (assuming good lie, unimpeded by trees, etc) if they have less than 220
They clearly would rather be long and chipping down hill to try and get up and down rather than “hitting a number” like 75 yards over the water
V different for an amateur with that water penalty in play (we are leas confident with 4 iron trying to carry a hazard) but it illustrates the point
I didn’t say anything about laying up other than I’d like a fuller shot I could spin rather than being too close and not being able to control it. #3 at augusta is an example. Most, not all of the pars today were from playing to a fuller shot as compared to trying to hold that green with anything down in the 30-40 yd range, it’s just a tough hole. As far as anything else, I still say having been there and seeing #10 that hole 3W is the proper play, or anything that gets you in the chute there. It’s not a layup at all. #13 it’s a choice of what you can swoop. Trying to fade a driver there is tuff, 3W still puts a 5i 2nd in your hands.
It’s such a hard pitch over the front water on 15 that going for the green is the safer play for these guys.
None of the Par 5s at augusta are layup holes, unless you take yourself out of play especially for these guys. All long enuff to get there. ZJ did show you can play all the par 5s traditionally and still score, but today’s players can all reach these par5s in 2.
I’m 65 years old, chances are I was taught this stuff in about the same decade you were. But “knowledge” didn’t stop in 1978, we’ve continued to learn about golf, as awell as every other field of endeavor. Over the last 10 years or so advances in shot records and statistical concepts has increased the understanding of how scoring works. That’s what this thread is largely about, the relatively newer concepts about scoring, backed with data collected from thousands (millions maybe?) of golfers of all levels of ability.
And in this discussion, its important to remember these are all generalities. All of the concepts apply to “golfers”, but not all of them necessarily apply to “DaveP043”. My particular set of strengths and weaknesses really doesn’t change the broad overall concepts, other than to serve as one out of millions of data points. The same with Fax or Slu or MJTorts, for the purposes here they’re just a data point, not anything conclusive.
Have you ever tried playing from closer? I don’t mean one time, I mean for a full season? Its definitely not comfortable at first, and there are definitely situations where its not advantageous, and of course a bit of partial-wedge practice helps, but it improved my overall proximity. I guarantee that if Gary Player or Jack Nicklaus had the same kind of data available when they were in their prime, none of us would ever have been taught to “lay up to a full wedge distance.”
Yes, I have tried from playing from 30-40 yds in especially on our Par5 that I cannot reach in 2. I can get close. Scoring for me, I tracked 40 plays over 1 year 3 years ago, I do keep a scoring app. From 80-100 (15 plays) yds I averaged 5.2 with 2x the amount of Birdie looks inside 20 ft than I got from 30-40 yds closer in I averaged 5.9 (25 plays). My propensity to want to get close poured 6 shots into a bunker and 6 shots bladed over the green and 2 shots completely muffed hitting the top half of my 60 going like 5yds. It’s a very uncomfortable distance for me because of the bunkers I cannot impart the spin on the shots I want to all things being equal. Golf is an individual game, it’s not one size fits all. I’m more comfy with droppin and stoppin a 60* from 70 yds that’s just me. Play to your strength, be aggressive…I know exactly how far my wedges fly flighted from 70-120. When I start playing those touchy/feely things I’m just not comfortable and at age 62, I don’t know if I want to devote the time to perfect a 35 yd flop over a bunker to a front pin position that in all honesty my brain would get in the way and I would decel! I can tell you this 100% of all putts and green chips left short miss! I was taught be aggressive with my putting (reach the hole) short putts commit to a line and hit it, don’t coax it, I make more short putts than the average bear because I’m not afraid, on a green to hit past the cup. I was taught take big numbers outta play. Accept your mistakes and limit it to one shot lost. Don’t compound. I’m tired oof people on here telling me that’s wrong, when all of the self education I am trying to do with these new systems say to do exactly what I’ve been doing. The day I was knocking around with slu up at BHP and he fired a 58, do you think any of these systems would have improved his game that day? Maybe he would have shot 57? Really? I’m NOT TEARING it down, I’m just saying that you gotta accept there are other (several other) concepts, systems, scoring helpers that are out there…At the end of the day the golfer has to put the ball in the hole whether I follow, Leadbetter, Como, Kostis et.al BTW, no one mentioned that every one of the players that I saw in the last few groups…including the Z-man hit 3W on #10…why? because it’s the proper play when its not wet!
One other thing, 435yd par 4, I hit driver 240, leaves me 200 give or take in…I don’t lay-up to 100, I hope that’s NOT what you all are thinking, I hit 7w and go from there. BUT I know enough if the pins on the left don’t aim left…aim right side to give myself best opportunity to make par. Miss left and 6 is in play, aim right 3,4,5 is in play…am I making sense to you ?
Check this out: I actually don’t agree with any of them! https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/golf-world-reacts-to-hideki-matsuyama-s-regretful-decision/ar-BB1fxzxW?li=BBorjTa I actually think he went one club too many and did not hit his normal high towering flight…The correct play was going for it, there was no wind, tee shot center of FW , he only had what max 190 carry could hit it 205 and be safe. Just poor club selection 5i not 4i for him!